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  1. #4921
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    My controversial take of the day:

    Trying to set Diana up as having been a hero since WW2 and the first superhero doesn't really do her any favors. It creates lots of nebulous questions about when she left the island, what's up with Steve, why did things continue as normal despite her being there, etc. The only thing it does is make her "important" and trying to turn her into who Superman was in real life, but it doesn't actually prop her up in a meaningful way. If you want her to have golden age adventures, just have her get stuck back in time for a while. She's immortal. They more or less did this with Hippolyta and it works better than "she was actually there in WW2 just don't think about anything else la la la we can't hear you okay present day."

    Her being the first or having been around that long has impacted nothing. The world is unchanged. It's superficial and only there to try and make her seem important. She doesn't need it.

    I don't care that she predates Superman, Batman, Alan and Jay or is being sold as the first superhero. I do care that it basically turns her internal narrative semi-radioactive in a way that reminds all too much of the Hawks. She had a pretty great origin story that didn't need mucking up, but lo, they did it anyway.
    The only way it would it really work for me would be if DC really committed to it in that our history, once Diana enters WW2, pretty much goes into straight alternate history since it kind of seems DC wants it both ways in this in that she was the first superhero but for the most part our world isn't that different until whatever the most recent generation is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    For the record, I don't think SuperWonder is much better. I do think Clark better matches with Diana (especially since modern Bruce has shifted further and further from someone Diana would actually care about as anything other than a friend), but I'd be fine never seeing either of them again.
    SuperWonder is the lesser evil of the two to me for largely the reasons you mentioned but yeah, definitely doesn't help "WonderBat" the reason it even has as many supporters as it does is because of a cartoon where crushing on Batman was the only memorable legacy she had on that show.

    But we also live in a world where Kingdom Come and Injustice exist, which also usually involve fridging Lois, so Diana in a relationship with Superman has it's own unique problems lol.
    Last edited by Gaius; 12-04-2021 at 09:40 PM.

  2. #4922
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    My controversial take of the day:

    Trying to set Diana up as having been a hero since WW2 and the first superhero doesn't really do her any favors. It creates lots of nebulous questions about when she left the island, what's up with Steve, why did things continue as normal despite her being there, etc. The only thing it does is make her "important" and trying to turn her into who Superman was in real life, but it doesn't actually prop her up in a meaningful way. If you want her to have golden age adventures, just have her get stuck back in time for a while. She's immortal. They more or less did this with Hippolyta and it works better than "she was actually there in WW2 just don't think about anything else la la la we can't hear you okay present day."

    Her being the first or having been around that long has impacted nothing. The world is unchanged. It's superficial and only there to try and make her seem important. She doesn't need it.

    I don't care that she predates Superman, Batman, Alan and Jay or is being sold as the first superhero. I do care that it basically turns her internal narrative semi-radioactive in a way that reminds all too much of the Hawks. She had a pretty great origin story that didn't need mucking up, but lo, they did it anyway.
    This is why I'm not bothered by when writers (supposedly) make Diana a Red Sonja or Xena ripoff. Making her a Captain America ripoff is infinitely worse.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-05-2021 at 12:53 AM.

  3. #4923
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is why I'm not bothered by when writers (supposedly) make Diana a Red Sonja or Xena ripoff. Making her a Captain America ripoff is infinitely worse.
    I think Cap has more similar to her character, with the Xena/Sonja stuff largely being superficial, but I do agree that transplanting her setting/relevance does more harm than good.
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  4. #4924
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Making Diana active during WWII is a retcon that’s never going to have a satisfying explanation in the current DC cannon.

    You can only either completely recreate what she was doing in that time or say all her books since her debut are cannon now. The first one is unsatisfying and the second just makes the retcon even more confusing. (Cap has a scape-goat cuz you can always say he was on ice during that time period)

    You can kind of do something in the middle and cherry pick older stories that where cannon, but then you’ll have to tweak those stories too because they don’t work in the context of modern day anymore…

    It’s like they want to do what Marvel does, but Marvel works on a sliding timeline. So even though The Dark Phoenix saga is always cannon, it didn’t happen in the 70’s when it is being revisited in the context of a modern day story. That doesn’t work when you say you’re hero is immortal, and was alive during that time period.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 12-05-2021 at 06:16 AM.
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  5. #4925
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Making Diana active during WWII is a retcon that’s never going to have a satisfying explanation in the current DC cannon.

    You can only either completely recreate what she was doing in that time or say all her books since her debut are cannon now. The first one is unsatisfying and the second just makes the retcon even more confusing. (Cap has a scape-goat cuz you can always say he was on ice during that time period)

    You can kind of do something in the middle and cherry pick older stories that where cannon, but then you’ll have to tweak those stories too because they don’t work in the context of modern day anymore…

    It’s like they want to do what Marvel does, but Marvel works on a sliding timeline. So even though The Dark Phoenix saga is always cannon, it didn’t happen in the 70’s when it is being revisited in the context of a modern day story. That doesn’t work when you say you’re hero is immortal, and was alive during that time period.
    Cap's also just super-soldier while it's kind to believe WW2 doesn't end within the week of Diana coming to Man's World.

  6. #4926
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is probably the only time you and I kind of agree on something.
    No, no, no. It absolutely is the only time we've ever kind of agreed on anything. I'm shocked, too.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  7. #4927

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    Diana being in Man's World during WW2 or WW1 or any other famous war should just be left to Elseworlds stories. Diana should be on the sliding timescale and always having debuted 10 or 15 years before whatever the current 'now' is.

  8. #4928
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Making Diana active during WWII is a retcon that’s never going to have a satisfying explanation in the current DC cannon.

    You can only either completely recreate what she was doing in that time or say all her books since her debut are cannon now. The first one is unsatisfying and the second just makes the retcon even more confusing. (Cap has a scape-goat cuz you can always say he was on ice during that time period)

    You can kind of do something in the middle and cherry pick older stories that where cannon, but then you’ll have to tweak those stories too because they don’t work in the context of modern day anymore…

    It’s like they want to do what Marvel does, but Marvel works on a sliding timeline. So even though The Dark Phoenix saga is always cannon, it didn’t happen in the 70’s when it is being revisited in the context of a modern day story. That doesn’t work when you say you’re hero is immortal, and was alive during that time period.
    The sliding timeline of Capsicle is a wonderful boon to anyone writing Captain America, something Diana used to have with how long she's been off the island being a nebulous "I dunno, ten years ago?"

    Having her debut in WWII basically makes it seem like she's changed nothing. If women can't even get the same pay as a man with Diana in the world being THE superhero for 80 years, I'm sorry, she's done nothing. It actively hurts her as a character. It's not only a matter of "old institutions" when she's been around long enough that people's grandparents grew up with her as a role model. She would have inspired someone by now if she could, but she hasn't which proves she's not actually as special as they want her to be-- as she is.

    Like any aspirational superhero, they have to debut in a somewhat contemporary setting and the date of arrival needs to slide with the timeline or else it just proves that they don't do anything significant. This is because superhero comics are designed to run indefinitely, sure, but that's why you write around the medium to benefit the story and character.

    Like Daddy Zues, I think this hurts Diana significantly more than it helps her and only appeases people who want their hero to be first or the bestest best in name if not in function.
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-05-2021 at 03:26 PM.
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  9. #4929
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    I think we have to separate out the real world economic and social inequalities with comic books.
    The reality is that superheroes are great at stopping the rocket from reaching people's shores.
    But real world inequalities are a lot harder to solve.
    Even summoning up the will to solve them is often a struggle.

    Superman and Wonder Woman deal with this all the time, because they have immense power.
    But they also are stuck with being outsiders, while also representing the American ideal.
    I think it is a bit much to think that Wonder Woman could just by herself reorient the structure of the global capitalist economy.
    These are the kind of things that are going to take all of us.
    How well do comic book writers address these kind of things anyway?
    Words, pictures aren't the same as people having deeply entrenched opinions that take time to overcome.

  10. #4930
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You and everyone with taste.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I like WonderBat
    Ooh. Awkward.

  11. #4931
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGA View Post
    I think we have to separate out the real world economic and social inequalities with comic books.
    The reality is that superheroes are great at stopping the rocket from reaching people's shores.
    But real world inequalities are a lot harder to solve.
    Even summoning up the will to solve them is often a struggle.

    Superman and Wonder Woman deal with this all the time, because they have immense power.
    But they also are stuck with being outsiders, while also representing the American ideal.
    I think it is a bit much to think that Wonder Woman could just by herself reorient the structure of the global capitalist economy.
    These are the kind of things that are going to take all of us.
    How well do comic book writers address these kind of things anyway?
    Words, pictures aren't the same as people having deeply entrenched opinions that take time to overcome.
    Yeah in recent times comics have mostly tried to avoid things like ... well ..... genuinely heartfelt social commentary.

  12. #4932
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    Ooh. Awkward.
    Everyone has the one friend with the wrong opinion.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  13. #4933
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Not that I disagree, it's just another manifestation of Bat-God
    I'd love to say this is 100% true because I've come to dislike the pairing (I only started hating it post DCAU), but I think the rationale of the pairing in the comic stories from the early 2000s was a tad more benign (for lack of a better term). I remember reading JLA 90 and on a couple of panels, they joke about pairing WW with Superman. It seemed to me to be Kelly's own meta commentary, that if you assumed WW had a love interest in the JL, everyone (at that time) would immediately guess Superman. So, Kelly was telling you Wonder-Bat was interesting because 1) WW's love interest wasn't Superman and 2) it's Batman. If you liked it, great. If you didn't, well, it wasn't going anywhere anyway, so just wait it out.

    As for the DCAU origins, I absolutely assume it's just there to make Batman's life more interesting for the viewers, many of whom were already invested in that version of Batman.

    ...

    As for economic inequity, I like the idea of heroes addressing it, but I'm not sure what you can actually accomplish. Like, does Wonder Woman actually turn modern-day America into a utilitarian utopia? There are probably good stories to tell, but they all feel kind of limited.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 12-06-2021 at 10:24 AM.

  14. #4934
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    I'm not a fan of either the Superman-Wonder Woman or Batman-Wonder Woman.

    I mean Superman has been connected with Lois Lane for quite a while. It just is wrong
    on so many levels. If you want to make it an elsewhere, I suppose meh well whatever.
    But the Batman pairing is even worse, it is hard to see how the personalities connect in any real way.
    It feels like someone's fan fiction, that well we can do this as an intellectual exercise.

    What troubles me about DC's female heroes is this tendency to just pair them off.
    Barbara Gordon has suffered from that for years. You would think that Diana would be immune,
    but not so.

  15. #4935
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I'd love to say this is 100% true because I've come to dislike the pairing (I only started hating it post DCAU), but I think the rationale of the pairing in the comic stories from the early 2000s was a tad more benign (for lack of a better term). I remember reading JLA 90 and on a couple of panels, they joke about pairing WW with Superman. It seemed to me to be Kelly's own meta commentary, that if you assumed WW had a love interest in the JL, everyone (at that time) would immediately guess Superman. So, Kelly was telling you Wonder-Bat was interesting because 1) WW's love interest wasn't Superman and 2) it's Batman. If you liked it, great. If you didn't, well, it wasn't going anywhere anyway, so just wait it out.

    As for the DCAU origins, I absolutely assume it's just there to make Batman's life more interesting for the viewers, many of whom were already invested in that version of Batman.

    ...

    As for economic inequity, I like the idea of heroes addressing it, but I'm not sure what you can actually accomplish. Like, does Wonder Woman actually turn modern-day America into a utilitarian utopia? There are probably good stories to tell, but they all feel kind of limited.
    I don't think every fan/writer who pushes for it does it because of "BatGod" syndrome but I'm less forgiving when it comes to the DCAU as Timm (and Dini even if he wasn't as involved) already had a track record by that point of making female characters who weren't before his love interests or giving them romantic feelings like with Barbara, Lois, and Zatanna.

    And unlike with the aforementioned, or Superman, DCAU Wonder Woman didn't really have any other significant or consistently good stuff to balance out the schoolgirl crush. Which doesn't help "WonderBat" when probably 95% or more support for that ship is because of that show.

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