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  1. #1606
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    So they are ex-spouses and have a child together

  2. #1607
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    So they are ex-spouses and have a child together
    Doris as in Giganta? I don't have DC Universe?

  3. #1608
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Doris as in Giganta? I don't have DC Universe?
    Yes, Giganta. That's a interesting dynamic

  4. #1609
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    No, what I meant was the psychological impact being the most powerful being on the planet is integral to Superman in a way that it isn't for Wonder Woman. She doesn't lend herself to the same types of stories, and her fanbase likely wouldn't want her to be.

    This isn't the same as saying her power isn't still a major factor or that she shouldn't be pulling off similar feats. because she should.
    I would argue that such stories may be even more appropriate for her given that she literally did come to change the world and could force submission but has the wisdom to seek true change.

    The notion that strength and power are not as important to her deal ignores her well documented origins. Marston and Gaines are on record with the exact opposite stance. The consideration of the marriage of femininity and DOMINANT force was the inspiration that sparked her design.

    The notion that she doesn't have feats rivaling--that is, equaling or surpassing Supes and otherz--is also false. To see those used to be an expensive time consuming endeavor but thanks to scanned books if one wants one can seek out that information.

  5. #1610
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I would argue that such stories may be even more appropriate for her given that she literally did come to change the world and could force submission but has the wisdom to seek true change.
    That's something that could happen, but hasn't really been put into practice in the last 80 years. And for better or worse, the loving submission stuff isn't used much anymore. it's pretty much been all but abandoned and Diana never seems to struggle with how much she should or should not do with her power. Because her main arena for change is in diplomacy, which doesn't rely on her feats.

    Wonder Woman just doesn't experience the same feelings of loneliness that Superman classically feels, a lot of which comes from him being the most powerful being on Earth and one of the last of his race (sometimes the only survivor). Diana isn't built for those kinds of stories, and I don't think most of her fandom would be interested in them at this point. It's not her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    The notion that strength and power are not as important to her deal ignores her well documented origins. Marston and Gaines are on record with the exact opposite stance. The consideration of the marriage of femininity and DOMINANT force was the inspiration that sparked her design.
    Wonder Woman doesn't belong to Marston anymore, who didn't have a say in how Superman and the rest of the DCU operates in the first place.

    And saying they are not quite as big of a deal to her as they are to Superman isn't the same as saying they aren't majorly important to her. Just not to the same extent, and not implemented in the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    The notion that she doesn't have feats rivaling--that is, equaling or surpassing Supes and otherz--is also false. To see those used to be an expensive time consuming endeavor but thanks to scanned books if one wants one can seek out that information.
    I never said she doesn't have those feats. If she's not quite as strong as Superman, she usaully still pulls off comparable feats with the help of other skills.

    You can also seek out the information of Superman's feats, which are consistently more powerful than hers, but the margins vary. But Superman being out there and slightly stronger than her doesn't impact her stories anyway, he isn't a regular feature in them nor should he be. She has enough problematic crap in her corner to worry about without the need to drag an unrelated character into it. Like the Wilson run did not portray her as consistently powerful (in terms of power and personality) as she should be but odds are very slim Superman factored into any of those creative decsions.

    If they were to fight 10 times, I'd give each of them 5 victories for different reasons. Not that they should be fighting anyway

  6. #1611
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Screenshot from 2020-01-07 20-46-02.jpg

    Here is Gigana, Dr.Pysho and their kid



    Here is what she looks like
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 01-07-2020 at 06:50 PM.

  7. #1612
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    I never would've imagined that a Harley Quinn cartoon would have the best WW rogues gallery representation in outside media

  8. #1613
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Found a couple posts here from the first round of the "strength" discussion. I figure I expressed myself better in there and I feel like this discussion has taken too much of the thread already. So I'll post them again and call that my final word on the matter. At least for a while. And just so it's clear, I'm not trying to change minds here, I've just been enjoying the debate, so thanks to those who finally brought the push-back I was expecting the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So here's a controversial opinion.

    I'm perfectly fine with the idea that Diana isn't nearly as strong as Superman....**As long as she's still just as capable.**

    I've read the arguments for making her Clark's physical equal and I get what Marston was going for, and they're good, solid reasons. But I'm not 100% cool with basing Diana's power off another (male) character. DC is never going to really make any hero stronger than Superman, just as they're never really going to let anyone be faster than the Flash. And in my opinion they shouldn't; DC is a pantheon where each hero is the king/queen of their own domain and specialty. But this means when Superman gets nerfed (like in post-Crisis) so does Diana. When he gets buffed, so does she. She doesn't stand on her own in this regard, she's a mirror of someone else and that someone else gets to set the rules and limits. I'm not cool with that, Diana's no legacy character!

    I'd be perfectly fine saying that Diana is *only* strong enough to throw tanks across a battlefield (which is still stupid strong) and durable enough to shrug off any man-made, hand-held weapon (she deflects bullets because she's not letting some mook actually shoot her! Even if it wont hurt its the principal of the thing!). I'd be fine with her running at the speed of sound, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, and able to "ride air currents" at 100-200 mph.

    I'd be fine with all of that.....but only as long as her reaction time and reflexes still allow her to catch bullets and deflect energy blasts (which, really, means she can still react to speedsters like Barry). If her training and combat skill allowed her to make damaging precision strikes against physically superior foes her strength level wouldn't normally allow her to hurt, I'd be okay with that since it's showing off her talent and ability and not just her muscles. And if her gear helps bring her up to that "top class" level (the armor increases her durability, her blade can cut atoms, her lasso is unbreakable, the invisible jet gets her around quickly, etc) then I don't see her being "less powerful" than Superman (or Shazam or whoever), but merely equally powerful in a different way.

    The way I see it, Diana currently has a distinct advantage over people like Superman in a fight. She's got the same raw power and a ton more skill. In a straight up brawl I think she'd beat Clark at least half the time (and Im being nice to Clark here). I don't want that to change, but I'd be fine if Diana's wins came from talent and ability (and power too, yes, she's not Captain America!) instead of *just* raw power.

    I'd also like to add a few "mythical/god-like" abilities to her arsenal, like being able to hear prayers or travel between earth and mythological dimensions like Olympus, the Island, etc., but this post is long enough already. But getting her a little bit away from the flying brick archetype and building a slightly more unique powerset around her.....wouldn't be the worst thing to happen, in my mind....as long as she remains just as capable and competent as she currently is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Man, this opinion isn't turning out to be nearly as controversial as I expected it to be. I figured I'd get all kinds of hate for wanting Diana to be physically weaker.

    Yeah, a few tweaks might be necessary. I haven't sat down and really, thoroughly gone through the idea and how it would affect Diana and her story. But the gear (like the tiara, lasso, etc) would most definitely be a bigger part of her "powerset" in my mind.

    I miss the old robot plane that Diana could control mentally, too. I mean, imagine fighting someone like this, who can throw tanks and catch bullets and cause sonic booms with her speed.....and on top of all that she's one of the greatest fighters in history, her lasso is snapping out like a whip, taking people down, tossing them across the field, whatever, while the sword cuts through everything it touches like butter, and there's a invisible bomber up in the sky somewhere that's laying down fire with ammunition designed to combat super humans. That's a badass fighter with a ton of options at her disposal. I feel like even powerful Leaguers like Hal, Clark, and Barry would be highly challenged by that in a fight.

    Not that Diana should be fighting her friends or anything, but since the comparisons are gonna be made anyway......
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  9. #1614
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman should overall be stronger (as Ascended said, that's more his thing than it ever has been for Diana who is not designed as a character completely the same way), but Wonder Woman shouldn't be far behind him. And they need to put their money where their mouth is as far as her being more skilled is concerned to balance it out.

    DC should quit nerfing either one of them and leave them the hell alone. And they do that within WW's own book at times regardless of whatever is going on with Superman.
    Agreed. I don't mind Superman being physically stronger and having his super senses over her, but Diana has none of his vulnerabilities plus better training and magic based weapons that roughly make her his equal. Now I can almost hear someone saying "but she's not invulnerable like he is" and to that the answer is she's not allergic to red sunlight or Kryptonite and doesn't get mind controlled every other week. Pound for pound she should win against him at least a third of the time and it's only not half because he's the undeniable editorially mandated Top Dog of the DC Universe.

  10. #1615
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Clark's not even "invulnerable" he's just really gods damn durable. But he can be hurt, it just takes a force equal to his own. Of which there are a whole lot in the DCU.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  11. #1616
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Clark's not even "invulnerable" he's just really gods damn durable. But he can be hurt, it just takes a force equal to his own. Of which there are a whole lot in the DCU.
    I'm speaking specifically of normal bullets and the fact she can be harmed by them but he can't.

  12. #1617
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Giganta is underrated and should get more exposure. Her complicated relationship with Ryan Choi was also interesting and should return.

  13. #1618
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I'm speaking specifically of normal bullets and the fact she can be harmed by them but he can't.
    Ah, yeah that's a weird leftover from Marston, I think? One that a lot of writers ignore. This is inconsistent even by Diana's standards.

    I always figured it was just more of Marston's weird sex commentary. Diana being vulnerable to penetration, and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Giganta is underrated and should get more exposure. Her complicated relationship with Ryan Choi was also interesting and should return.
    Her relationship with Ryan was the best thing about her. Fantastic dynamic, and it turned a one-note villain into a complex and interesting character you could actually be emotionally invested in.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  14. #1619
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, yeah that's a weird leftover from Marston, I think? One that a lot of writers ignore. This is inconsistent even by Diana's standards.

    I always figured it was just more of Marston's weird sex commentary. Diana being vulnerable to penetration, and all that.
    Well he also didn't write her as being able to fight a Kryptonian. I think it's just that the original power list didn't have that.
    Her relationship with Ryan was the best thing about her. Fantastic dynamic, and it turned a one-note villain into a complex and interesting character you could actually be emotionally invested in.
    This is one of those weird things. Writers seem to want to avoid making villains interesting lest they become more popular than the hero. But then the hero AND villain are boring. Harley is interesting, more interesting than Bat-murderer. Thus fans are happy to see her get a mini-series, regardless of whether it makes sense for someone who wasn't even a main character to get their own comic book.

  15. #1620
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    Not a fan of Amazons or Wonder Woman´ island. It seems pretty unnecessary, it´d work better if Diana is (kinda cliche, but still) the last amazon or one of the few alive (I want Artemis, Cassie and Donna safe), really, Amazons always lose wars in comic book sagas, not only that, their philosophy is gross (about men hater, knowing they kill childs)

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