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  1. #751
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Both in Marstons and rebirth Steve does appear from time to time. So it's not like you need him in ever issue doing something. Some parts he can be involved others he doesn't have to be.
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  2. #752
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    If Azzarello had done a better handling of Steve it wouldn't have taken yet another reboot for him to be a major part of the book again. There was never an issue with Perez's take on Steve even if writers felt the only way he'd have a place in the mythos was as a love interest and there'had been at least two previous attempts to remove him in the past.

  3. #753
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Perez has written story in several times. So it's not like Perez didn't write Steve. Steve shouldn't be removed. You can still keep him in the background.
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  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Azzarello did a much better job with Steve than Perez did. Largely by leaving his place in the mythos intact even if he otherwise largely ignored him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Azzarello did a better job than most WW writers.
    Yep.

    10 characters.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  5. #755
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    If Azzarello had done a better handling of Steve it wouldn't have taken yet another reboot for him to be a major part of the book again. There was never an issue with Perez's take on Steve even if writers felt the only way he'd have a place in the mythos was as a love interest and there'had been at least two previous attempts to remove him in the past.
    The reboot was for other things, it had nothing to do with Steve. Both Perez's and Azzarello's Steve's were non-entities, but the latter made sense because he was just a cameo. He had no active role in the story, but they didn't have to remove his role in the mythos. He wasn't a love interest there either, but had been at one time.

    The previous attempts to remove him don't make the COIE attempt any better, and at least they never acted like he never existed in his original capacity to begin with. He has no reason to exist if he's not a love interest/previous one, as the lack of use post-Crisis can attest.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Perez has written story in several times. So it's not like Perez didn't write Steve. Steve shouldn't be removed. You can still keep him in the background.
    Perez used him but didn't do anything memorable with him, and evidently didn't leave anything for future writers to want to use too much.
    Same with Etta.

  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The reboot was for other things, it had nothing to do with Steve. Both Perez's and Azzarello's Steve's were non-entities, but the latter made sense because he was just a cameo. He had no active role in the story, but they didn't have to remove his role in the mythos. He wasn't a love interest there either, but had been at one time.

    The previous attempts to remove him don't make the COIE attempt any better, and at least they never acted like he never existed in his original capacity to begin with. He has no reason to exist if he's not a love interest/previous one, as the lack of use post-Crisis can attest.



    Perez used him but didn't do anything memorable with him, and evidently didn't leave anything for future writers to want to use too much.
    Same with Etta.
    I counter that if this is the case, then Steve Trevor as a character is a failure and the WW mythos is better off without him.

  7. #757
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I counter that if this is the case, then Steve Trevor as a character is a failure and the WW mythos is better off without him.
    Not sure I agree with that. Sidelining Steve Trevor (and Etta Candy) was arguably the worst mistake that came out of the Pérez era (and I have no idea on whose idea it was to do so).

    Just because many creators have been unable to write a good Steve is no reason to dismiss the character. You should judge a character based on its best examples, not its worst. And you can find good Steves, quite easily. The movie is probably the best example, but De Liz's Legend of Wonder Woman and Scott's Bombshells also have good Steves. Wilson's also not doing badly in her use of him, despite her having to deal with Rucka's militarised iteration of the character.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #758
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I argue this why not have Steve be trained in the way of the Amazons. Showing that it’s time to have the two worlds together. Even if he isn’t on the level on Diana. He is much more stronger in helping her out. Steve should be able to help Argus on ideation a regrading mythical things when Diana isn’t around

    The way it seems is some of you think Steve should be written out. You don’t see Lois being written out. Catwoman and Batman often find out each id. So I can’t see why it’s a big deal in why Steve shouldn’t be in the mythos. It’s the writers job to do this. We have seen it in Legends and The movie. Can’t see why it can’t be done
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 07-18-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Not sure I agree with that. Sidelining Steve Trevor (and Etta Candy) was arguably the worst mistake that came out of the Pérez era (and I have no idea on whose idea it was to do so).

    Just because many creators have been unable to write a good Steve is no reason to dismiss the character. You should judge a character based on its best examples, not its worst. And you can find good Steves, quite easily. The movie is probably the best example, but De Liz's Legend of Wonder Woman and Scott's Bombshells also have good Steves. Wilson's also not doing badly in her use of him, despite her having to deal with Rucka's militarised iteration of the character.
    I'm not arguing for Steve to be sidelined. I'm not even saying there aren't good versions of the character. I was arguing against seige's claim that Steve has no reason to exist if he isn't a love interest. I don't think even Lois Lane fans would say that about her.

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Perez used him but didn't do anything memorable with him, and evidently didn't leave anything for future writers to want to use too much.
    Same with Etta.
    Which are just two reasons I was never down with Perez's reboot.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  11. #761
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm not arguing for Steve to be sidelined. I'm not even saying there aren't good versions of the character. I was arguing against seige's claim that Steve has no reason to exist if he isn't a love interest. I don't think even Lois Lane fans would say that about her.
    I also said "previous love interest," as in their relationship can end and they both can go on to other things or he can die. Or like Lois and Clark do when written at their best, function as individuals away from each other while still being love interests. But if the narrative foundation is gone, he has no reason to exist. But aging him up and depriving him of that role was the worst thing to ever happen to the character and is a change that contributes to lack of stability in the WW corner. Hell, even the most adamant anti-Steve people seldom turn around and say they liked post-COIE Steve, that version holds a lukewarm reception at best. NOTHING ever happened with him, almost nobody cared and adaptations that pull a lot of stuff from Gods and Mortals give that Steve the widest of possible berths.

    Lois fans don't have to say it because they know, no matter how many others ways they may screw up with her, DC would never do to Lois what they did to Steve in canon for a few decades. because if she became Clark's big sister figure and married Jimmy, that'd be it for her. Her foundation is the lead love interest for a lead character, every thing else that evolved to make her a versatile and iconic character in her own right is still built on top of that. It's always unwise to strip such a basic function from a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    The way it seems is some of you think Steve should be written out. You don’t see Lois being written out. Catwoman and Batman often find out each id. So I can’t see why it’s a big deal in why Steve shouldn’t be in the mythos. It’s the writers job to do this. We have seen it in Legends and The movie. Can’t see why it can’t be done
    For me, Steve being written out (even if temporarily) is fine as long as his original purpose and role is intact. I'm not even super wild about him some times, but having the WW mythos not reflect the very basics of the published stories isn't helping her. Like, in the movies I'm fine with him getting killed off because he played his classic role, had his own arc and went out on a high note. I would even have been fine with him not being in WW84 and beyond even though I'm intrigued on where this is going.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 07-18-2019 at 05:14 PM.

  12. #762
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    They technically already written him out with Perez era. Why try to do it again? I rather have him be supporting cast before trying to kill him off. The same can be said about any comic arc and character. Like Jason Todd should have stayed dead. It's all about the writing. Trying to kill a character off that for a long thing has been ignored. We shouldn't start again.
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  13. #763
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I feel that Diana suffers from is she has many scientists in her rogue gallery. I mean Giganta is a scientist but we never get to see any of that used when she becomes a villain. What do you guys think? Is there a way to have Doris(Giganta) have her spalls be used and not just hired help
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  14. #764
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think Giganta needs some serious TLC, more than any other major foe in the rogues gallery. As inconsistently and arbitrarily Cheetah is often handled, Giganta is far worse off.

    Personally I think the best thing anyone has done with her in twenty years (minimum) was All-New Atom, which turned her into a love interest for Ryan Choi without really pushing her into anti-hero territory. *That* was an interesting use of the character and I wish they'd go back to that. Doris is wasted in Diana's rogues gallery, and even though female villains trying to go straight has happened so often lately it's starting to become a joke, I think it's as good a direction as any for Giganta.
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  15. #765
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Lois wasn't juggling any skyscrapers, trashing alien armadas or saving the universe, the last time I saw her. How many traps has saving her got Superman into? He loves her anyway, and she's heroic, in her own right, but, she's nowhere near Superman's equal, as a superhero. She has her moments, but, when it counts, Lois does exactly what Superman tells her to do, ..and that's why the Apokoliptian flag isn't flying over Metropolis, today.

    She's a good, little helper, most of the time.
    Except when she's Super-Lois. https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/File:Lois...Earth_0001.jpg

    The same can be said of Steve's relationship with Diana. They are not equals and don't need to be. If we're going to keep Steve around, I see nothing wrong with him acknowledging Diana's superiority, as his commander, while challenging her, ..as her sometimes lover. That's infinitely more interesting, than Superman+Wonder Woman...

    =Swonder bo-oorrrinng.

    Diana, albeit in disguise, worked for/under Steve for decades. I see no reason why, with Diana being a Lara Croftish adventurer, Steve can't play his blamed position and work for/under her in the field. They're not and never have been equals...make it plain. Why is that a problem?
    Cheetah does the Lara Croft thing. WW is more like the Trinity guys.

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