Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Jabare]

Why? How strong is Solomon Grundy? How strong is Captain Atom? Do you care about the answer to these questions?

Captain Atom is in that vague top tier range. Physically he's below Wonder Woman and Superman, but in terms of his blasts and radiation he should be closer to the top for earth heroes.

Solomon Grundy is more mid level in the comics especially when he tangles with Batman. The Justice League cartoon portrayed him closer to the Hulk's level


I wouldn't worry about that too much power levels tend to be vague and often fluctuate in the service of a story, especially in a shared universe.

[BiteTheBullet]

Clearly you haven't read the Superman/Batman arc that featured the return of the Kara Zor-El Supergirl. There were an army of Doomsdays. It was over rather quickly.

That was one of the worst scenes in comics. Superman does his heat vision, makes it go wide range so that it can kill every doomsday clone as if they were paper?!? The animated movie as well as comic story actually had someone approve of this garbage. And then, Batman, at least in the movie version, takes an axe into battle against these Doomsday clones? Just insipid story telling. If memory serves me correct, I think this was a Jeph Loeb story, the guy that also had Supes destroy her indestructible braclets as well as choke her to death with her own lasso.

Unless these were inferior clones, which was never said, but I guess implied because of how easily they got destroyed and the fact that the BatGod was capable of fighting them with an axe. Just terrible, and you are using that as an example? Was this one of those great character arcs, powers be damned story?

[Alpha]

Captain Atom is in that vague top tier range. Physically he's below Wonder Woman and Superman, but in terms of his blasts and radiation he should be closer to the top for earth heroes.

Solomon Grundy is more mid level in the comics especially when he tangles with Batman. The Justice League cartoon portrayed him closer to the Hulk's level


I wouldn't worry about that too much power levels tend to be vague and often fluctuate in the service of a story, especially in a shared universe.

The point of the question is that Mystical probably doesn't know, and probably doesn't care. People only care about "power stats" if they care about the characters involved in the first place.

[phonogram12]

That was one of the worst scenes in comics. Superman does his heat vision, makes it go wide range so that it can kill every doomsday clone as if they were paper?!? The animated movie as well as comic story actually had someone approve of this garbage. And then, Batman, at least in the movie version, takes an axe into battle against these Doomsday clones? Just insipid story telling. If memory serves me correct, I think this was a Jeph Loeb story, the guy that also had Supes destroy her indestructible braclets as well as choke her to death with her own lasso.

Unless these were inferior clones, which was never said, but I guess implied because of how easily they got destroyed and the fact that the BatGod was capable of fighting them with an axe. Just terrible, and you are using that as an example? Was this one of those great character arcs, powers be damned story?

My point was that while someone pointed out that the likes of Doomsday never gets disrespected the same way Cheetah does, this story clearly proves otherwise.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

[phonogram12]

I read it. And those clones did not have equal stats to the real thing.


Your logic doesn't work. Because anybody should care that stats aren't respected within the logic of a story.

You mentioned that villains like Doomsday never get disrespected the same way Cheetah does. That story clearly proves otherwise. So, yeah, you were wrong in this particular instance.

Very wrong.

WW doesn't have any iconic runs.

Okay, you pretty much lose all credibility here. The fans of Perez and Rucka would like a word, please.

[phonogram12]

Yeah, isn't there already a thread for this? In addition to several highjacked threads?
* exhausting*

Take a drink every time some form of the word " weak" works its way into a thread....

Well, you know who to thank for that.

Agreed.

This is why I spend less time on the WW forum than usual.

Nobody said you can't discuss power levels but why does it have to spill over to every single thread in addition to all the threads dedicated to it? Is there nothing else to discuss about WW other than the question of how hard she hits?

For some, apparently this is the only thing that makes her interesting, I guess.

[WonderLight789]

Mystical said that everybody should care about stats. I'm asking him if he cares about the stats of Captain Atom and Solomon Grundy, and if so, how powerful would they be.

To most people, Barbara Minnerva is as interesting as Solomon Grundy and Captain Atom. If you want more people to care about her power, then ask for stories that make her more interesting and appealing.

Right now I would say that there are 5 or 6 Barbara Minerva stories you would aprove of.

1 Savage Moon in Wonder Woman #31 (which still isn't very impressive, and Shim'tarr is shown to be far more powerful just three issues later in Wonder Woman #34)
2 Her murder of Sebastian Ballesteros in Wonder Woman #187 by Phil Jiminez
3 Secret Six #3 by Gail Simone
4 New 52 Justice League Story by Geoff Johns where she fought the league and transformed Superman into a werecheetah
5 The 2014 Sensation Comics story Generations by Michael Jelenic about the Phoenix Egg
6 Wonder Woman Rebirth "Lies" which doesn't actually make Cheetah seem powerful, just scary

This isn't enough to make people care about her.

Captain Atom is a powerhouse and should be respected as such.

Grundy depends on the version. Depending on context he can be a team buster or can be challenged by Batman. Which goes to prove oncer again. What i said about stats and making sense in a story. Anybody can beat anybody under certain circumstances. But you need an explanation. If you want a human fighting a super human who is supposed to be far above in stats. You need a proper explanation. Otherwise. It is just lazy and disrespectfu l writing. Where you nerf a character without even explaning anything. Just to keep the plot going.

And plkease. Stop with the ''people need to care first'' excuse. Because there are many characters with less development than Cheetah that don't get treated as jobber so often.In fact WW hereself gets nerfed and jobbed out a lot. And she is supposed to be an icon loved by a lot of people. So please, let's stop trying to justify bad writing. Inconsistencies and at times. Sexism.

[phonogram12]

Mystical said that everybody should care about stats. I'm asking him if he cares about the stats of Captain Atom and Solomon Grundy, and if so, how powerful would they be.

To most people, Barbara Minnerva is as interesting as Solomon Grundy and Captain Atom. If you want more people to care about her power, then ask for stories that make her more interesting and appealing.

Exactly this.

[WonderLight789]

You mentioned that villains like Doomsday never get disrespected the same way Cheetah does. That story clearly proves otherwise. So, yeah, you were wrong in this particular instance.

Very wrong.



Okay, you pretty much lose all credibility here. The fans of Perez and Rucka would like a word, please.

No. Because those are Clones. And Cheetah gets treated as a jobber a lot. Wonder Woman is also in the same position. So i guess she has no good stories and nobody cares about her. See? That was easy to counter. Facts are facts. And WW gets a lot of crummy treatment. There is no way to deny it. So using your logic. she is not important and people don't care about her. And above all this. If levels and stats exist for a reason. Writers should be profesional enough to respect the basic rules. Portraying fights and stats in an accurate way, is important just like developing a character's goals and feelings. Everythig matters. and one thing doesn't need to wait for the other to go first. Everything should be handled properly at once. That's what being a profesional at your job is all about.

[Primal Slayer]

Okay, you pretty much lose all credibility here. The fans of Perez and Rucka would like a word, please.

That's the craziest thing yet

[phonogram12]

No. Because those are Clones. And Cheetah gets treated as a jobber a lot. Wonder Woman is also in the same position. So i guess she has no good stories and nobody cares about her. See? That was easy to counter. Facts are facts. And WW gets a lot of crummy treatment. There is no way to deny it. So using your logic. she is not important and people don't care about her. And above all this. If levels and stats exist for a reason. Writers should be profesional enough to respect the basic rules. Portraying fights and stats in an accurate way, is important just like developing a character's goals and feelings. Everythig matters. and one thing doesn't need to wait for the other to go first. Everything should be handled properly at once. That's what being a profesional at your job is all about.

All I read are excuses, but you do you.

That's the craziest thing yet

Right?!? I'm not even a fan of the Perez run and I realize what a character-defining run that was!

[Gaelforce]

Many deletions, so let's dial it down a notch.

There is a thread dedicated to WW and sexism where most of this could have gone.

The opinion that WW/Cheetah job to multiple heroes and such has been posted elsewhere and doesn't need to go here as well (again)

Most importantly, when you post, discuss the topic and not the other posters. Don't make it personal.

[marhawkman]

Okay, you pretty much lose all credibility here. The fans of Perez and Rucka would like a word, please.

And Eric Luke, the original Devastation story was amazing.

[Stanlos]

That was one of the worst scenes in comics. Superman does his heat vision, makes it go wide range so that it can kill every doomsday clone as if they were paper?!? The animated movie as well as comic story actually had someone approve of this garbage. And then, Batman, at least in the movie version, takes an axe into battle against these Doomsday clones? Just insipid story telling. If memory serves me correct, I think this was a Jeph Loeb story, the guy that also had Supes destroy her indestructible braclets as well as choke her to death with her own lasso.

Unless these were inferior clones, which was never said, but I guess implied because of how easily they got destroyed and the fact that the BatGod was capable of fighting them with an axe. Just terrible, and you are using that as an example? Was this one of those great character arcs, powers be damned story?

I have to pop in to defend Jeff Loeb here. It is true that he portrayed WW and her gear differently from her main self at the time. However, after OWAW he interacted with fans like myself and got better acquainted with her legend, her power levels, and her gear.

So he put cues to signal this is different version. Since we do not see her Diana Trevor armor and insignia we know there was no Contest. With no Contest in play, there is no gift of the Silver Bracelets of Victory from Athena, whose indestructible nature and protective power were very well defined during the Perez/Berger era. WW's gear and armour were very important during volume 2.

[WonderLight789]

I have to pop in to defend Jeff Loeb here. It is true that he portrayed WW and her gear differently from her main self at the time. However, after OWAW he interacted with fans like myself and got better acquainted with her legend, her power levels, and her gear.

So he put cues to signal this is different version. Since we do not see her Diana Trevor armor and insignia we know there was no Contest. With no Contest in play, there is no gift of the Silver Bracelets of Victory from Athena, whose indestructible nature and protective power were very well defined during the Perez/Berger era. WW's gear and armour were very important during volume 2.

But what does her gear have to do with her power level? Sounds like he tried to justify the gear getting broken. But not the fact she was helpless against superman.