Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[AmiMizuno]

I think the Banas and Paradise Islanders should be separated for a different reason but after a while Hippoltya and Antiople patch things up and every so centuries both groups will meet and celebrate.


I think it would be nice if on the Island if there were more than one tribe of Amazons. Like each tribe is known for something more. Like all the Amazons have training but no amazons fight the same way. Some are more artistic or more mythical. I would really like it if we some how amazons perform magic

[Primal Slayer]

I think the Banas and Paradise Islanders should be separated for a different reason but after a while Hippoltya and Antiople patch things up and every so centuries both groups will meet and celebrate.

I like the Banas to be a "black sheep" of the Amazons that Hippolyta and others don't really speak of until Diana runs into them and they infiltrate Themiscryia only to end up being welcomed back to the Island.

[AmiMizuno]

I like the Banas to be a "black sheep" of the Amazons that Hippolyta and others don't really speak of until Diana runs into them and they infiltrate Themiscryia only to end up being welcomed back to the Island.

Should it be before or after Diana finds them. I was thinking maybe a few had already did that. That maybe the Amazons had left the Island once or twice due to a mission and the Banas had found out.

[TheRay]

Ares is a great rogue for Wonder Woman, but I think he's even better as sort of an anti-villain, where he teams up with Wonder Woman almost, if not entirely, as often as he faces off with her.

[Primal Slayer]

Should it be before or after Diana finds them. I was thinking maybe a few had already did that. That maybe the Amazons had left the Island once or twice due to a mission and the Banas had found out.

I like her to not have no real knowledge of them and her coming to Mans World is what basically alerts them to Paradise Island. If the Bana have no real immortality, Themiscryia could kind of be a myth/nursery story that they are told about throughout time.

[Alpha]

Ares is a great rogue for Wonder Woman, but I think he's even better as sort of an anti-villain, where he teams up with Wonder Woman almost, if not entirely, as often as he faces off with her.

I get why people enjoy that, and I even appreciated the ending of Rucka's Rebirth run. But I feel that there's a lot of untapped potential in Ares that probably should just be used in another villain. Because for the god of war, he seems too detached and poetic about it.

I was just watching The Wire and Sopranos and I suddenly realized that Ares should create the same feeling as some of the characters on that show. The ultimate version of toxic masculinity but under the basis of survival. I really want Diana to be faced with a villain with the same mentality of those gangsters from the Wire in particular. Characters like Bodie and Avon (The Wire) and Paulie (Sopranos) are like rageful Rottweilers that only see the world through violence. They think war is always inevitable and that someone is always coming for them and for what they want, and they exist through hostility. The only way to survive on the streets is by making everyone around you fear for their lives, and humiliate them everytime you can while proping yourself up as the baddest demon in town. They even make sure that their allies hate them so that their rage leads them to become the monsters they need to be.

Ares should create the same feeling that we must be hostile at all moments and create misery wherever we go. Because ultimately, gang culture is the opposite of Diana's peace ideals. It's fear and preemptive violence and humiliation. Diana should have a villain like that that embodies the most extreme form of toxic masculinity. Someone that creates the immediate urgency oof being attacked by a rottweiler. Not an actual gang leader, but someone that acts like one.

[TheRay]

I don't really feel like there's untapped potential in Ares at all. He should just be used more. I was very glad to see him pop up in Injustice.

[John Venus]

I like the idea of Ares starting off like he did in the Perez run, then becoming more of an ally like he was during Rucka's first run and Infinite Crisis and then finally culminating in him becoming the Ares we see in Rebirth. If I had to change anything from WWY1, I would have Perez inspired Ares defeats in Y1 and in Y10 he's transformed into the version we see at the end.

We have seen WW and Ares team up both pre nu52 and in Rebirth.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think Year One could have worked with it actually being Ares himself out in the world, and he wants access to Themyscira so he can get at the demonic energies in Doom's Doorway. Deimos and Phobos would recruit Cale and create Cheetah and all that stuff to do the same to earn brownie points from daddy. And Diana could return to and from Themyscira, it would just be at the whim of the patrons. She would always be subconsciously guided back to the island for visits (same with Donna), but the patrons could shut that off on a whim. And Gods they wouldn't want to know (like Ares and his kids) wouldn't be able to track Diana when she goes.

Basically combine the aspects of both Perez and Rucka's Rebirth

[Agent Z]

I get why people enjoy that, and I even appreciated the ending of Rucka's Rebirth run. But I feel that there's a lot of untapped potential in Ares that probably should just be used in another villain. Because for the god of war, he seems too detached and poetic about it.

I was just watching The Wire and Sopranos and I suddenly realized that Ares should create the same feeling as some of the characters on that show. The ultimate version of toxic masculinity but under the basis of survival. I really want Diana to be faced with a villain with the same mentality of those gangsters from the Wire in particular. Characters like Bodie and Avon (The Wire) and Paulie (Sopranos) are like rageful Rottweilers that only see the world through violence. They think war is always inevitable and that someone is always coming for them and for what they want, and they exist through hostility. The only way to survive on the streets is by making everyone around you fear for their lives, and humiliate them everytime you can while proping yourself up as the baddest demon in town. They even make sure that their allies hate them so that their rage leads them to become the monsters they need to be.

Ares should create the same feeling that we must be hostile at all moments and create misery wherever we go. Because ultimately, gang culture is the opposite of Diana's peace ideals. It's fear and preemptive violence and humiliation. Diana should have a villain like that that embodies the most extreme form of toxic masculinity. Someone that creates the immediate urgency oof being attacked by a rottweiler. Not an actual gang leader, but someone that acts like one.

If we're looking for a villain that embodies toxic masculinity, Zeus and Poseidon are better candidates.

[John Venus]

I think Year One could have worked with it actually being Ares himself out in the world, and he wants access to Themyscira so he can get at the demonic energies in Doom's Doorway. Deimos and Phobos would recruit Cale and create Cheetah and all that stuff to do the same to earn brownie points from daddy. And Diana could return to and from Themyscira, it would just be at the whim of the patrons. She would always be subconsciously guided back to the island for visits (same with Donna), but the patrons could shut that off on a whim. And Gods they wouldn't want to know (like Ares and his kids) wouldn't be able to track Diana when she goes.

Basically combine the aspects of both Perez and Rucka's Rebirth

I would have the consequence of failing the mission be Diana being unable to return to Paradise Island. So Diana, naive and eager to explore the outside world, participates in the contest, becomes their champion, leaves to fight Ares and brings Steve along with her then she faces the second act defeat where she fails to stop Ares at a critical moment. Thus she's banished. She cannot 'see' the island anymore nor penetrate it's barriers. Lost, she has to scrounge up some friends in Man's World; Steve, Etta, Julia and Helena and get their help in defeating Ares. She manages to humble him and then reunite with her sisters at the end. Then she decides she's going to stay in Man's World as it's Ambassador so the Amazons don't 'have' to keep hiding anymore.

[Alpha]

If we're looking for a villain that embodies toxic masculinity, Zeus and Poseidon are better candidates.

If you base them on mythology, but Ares is war itself. What's a better embodiment of toxic masculinity than war? But again, I'm not even saying I want them to do that with Ares, since I do like the poetic portrayal of him that we've had until now.

I'm just saying that Wonder Woman needs a villain with the mentality I described in my previous comment. It can be a fresh new villain, but she really should have one.

Zeus and Poseidon could never embody those things because they don't embody war

[Agent Z]

If you base them on mythology, but Ares is war itself. What's a better embodiment of toxic masculinity than war?

Toxic masculinity is a lot more complicated than men just being violent. It's men being told to repress their emotions because "men don't cry" or encouraging abusive or bullying attitudes towards women and other men or even mocking men for doing "feminine" things like cooking and cleaning.

War might be a situation in which toxic masculinity can be fostered but isn't the only one or necessarily the worst one.

Zeus and Poseidon are controlling, abusive patriarchs who think they are owed the world because of who they are and respond with disproportionate rage and destruction when they don't get their way. Zeus's depiction in the Perez and Simone runs are far better examples of toxic masculinity than Ares ever has been in the comics or even the myths.

[Alpha]

Toxic masculinity is a lot more complicated than men just being violent. It's men being told to repress their emotions because "men don't cry" or encouraging abusive or bullying attitudes towards women and other men.

War might be a situation in which toxic masculinity can be fostered but isn't the only one or necessarily the worst one.

Look, we have until now disagreed on everything single conversation we ever had, I doubt this will change now. But remember that I'm not insisting on changing Ares, I'm saying that these qualities I look for could be in a new villain, but that someone should definitely embody the mindset of a gang leader always putting down and attacking others, even the people around them, in a constant fit of survival and expectation of war. Someone who ironically creates more anger and rage simply by insisting on being hostile, someone who Diana could never convince to abandon this lifestyle because they are factually correct in the sense that they were being attacked before they did anything, but they have also guaranteed that there will always be something out there trying to make them pay. So Diana could never convince them to stop creating anger in the world, she can only hope that the people around him will listen to her.

War is definitely the ultimate form of toxic masculinity, I don't see how you could disagree with this.

Zeus and Poseidon are controlling, abusive patriarchs who think they are owed the world because of who they are and respond with disproportionate rage and destruction when they don't get their way.

Hold up, what has Poseidon done in comics? And the big difference is that they only do that when they don't get their way, but the "rageful rottweiler gangleader" I'm describing is someone that does that even when they don't have a need to, as a preemptive strike on anyone that could ever think to attack them or betray them.

Zeus's depiction in the Perez and Simone runs are far better examples of toxic masculinity than Ares ever has been in the comics or even the myths.

Again, look at the Golden Age Ares and compare him to any version of Zeus in comics. He had a a huge space slave empire with which he tried to conquer countless worlds and created dozens of villains and monsters down on earth. He ruined plenty of people's lives and exploited their worst insecurities (like the first Silver Swan).

[Agent Z]

War is definitely the ultimate form of toxic masculinity, I don't see how you could disagree with this.

Because the reasons the people fight wars are many and varied such as defending their homes or trying to overthrow a tyrannical empire. By your logic, Diana was engaging in toxic masculinity when she fought in WW2 against the Nazis in the original comics.

Hold up, what has Poseidon done in comics?

See the Azarello run.

And the big difference is that they only do that when they don't get their way, but the "rageful rottweiler gangleader" I'm describing is someone that does that even when they don't have a need to, as a preemptive strike on anyone that could ever think to attack them or betray them.

This is a distinction without a difference. Zeus and Poseidon don't "need" to do any of the horrible things they do.

Again, look at the Golden Age Ares and compare him to any version of Zeus in comics. He had a a huge space slave empire with which he tried to conquer countless worlds and created dozens of villains and monsters down on earth. He ruined plenty of people's lives and exploited their worst insecurities (like the first Silver Swan).

That's not toxic masculinity. That's just being a supervillain. And Zeus tried to do something similar in Simone's run. He was just less successful.