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  1. #3361
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    She is not fighting like a brawler there. She is using fighting technique, acrobatics and the lasso.
    I linked that video as a response about her wrestling. Cuz in that fight she goes full WWE Smackdown and does a suplex and elbow drop.

  2. #3362
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post

    IMO Diana is the granddaughter of Ares as Hippolyta is the daughter of Ares. But, Diana was sculpted from Gaia, a primordial multiverse level entity that represents creation and earth, and brought to life by multiple Goddess and some Gods. This puts her above a Demigoddess actually, were we to fully explore it. She's a lesser Goddess in truth, not on the same level as a full God like Ares or even Zeus, who are second and first generation Olympians respectively, but more powerful then say Herakles or Perseus.
    The point of demigods in greek mythology was that they were mortal. Men birthed from a womb and that would one day die. It had nothing to do with their power.

    Gods were representations of aspects of the world, both abstract like Ares and War, and physical, like Apollo and the Sun. Their powers were that they could change shape and change reality and that their nature was connected to that element they represented. For Diana to be a god she must be immortal, have those reality shaping powers, and be mystically connected to a concept or aspect of the universe.

    That said, there are creatures that are creations of gods, or children of gods and also represent aspects of the universe, but aren't themselves gods. Nymphs for example are connected to specific lakes. The difference is in how they can be worshipped. You must respect a nymph, but you don't have to worship them in order to interact with their element. I also believe that they didn't transform reality around them, they just transformed themselves.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-14-2021 at 05:10 PM.

  3. #3363
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    Stronganna



    Theres also Warriana from the cartoon Venture Bros
    Never watched Venture Bros. I should check it out one day. Thanks for your idea. I understand the name Stronganna of course, but it also lacks the quality I enjoy in the name "Wonder Woman". To me the word " Wonder" has 3 different meanings. The first and most obvious, she herself is a Wonder. Someone that defies the expectations that society imposes on women. She is physically superior to most people she will ever meet but also a complete wish fulfillment fantasy of a woman that was raised without ever needing to think about her gender, but none the less was always special and had every reason to love herself.

    The second meaning of Wonder is more veired towards how she looks at the world. She is someone that seeks Wonder. She looks for beauty and adventure and creativity, and intrigue. She is someone full of appreciation for the vastness of the universe.

    The third meaning is in the act of Wondering. I understand why from the very beginning Marston wrote Diana as having left Paradise Island out of a sense of duty, but to me the more fascinating reason why she would leave the island is out of a sense of curiosity for men and for these other women that were left behind, along with all the unique technologies and landscapes and creatures she could only see outside. It's a curiosity for the world but also for the people. The reason why Diana connects to others is because she wonders about their lives and their experiences and ideas. She loves who she is, but not more than she loves to discover who others are.

    Oh, and the title of Wonder Woman isn't just a superhero name, it's a proclamation. Diana can only become Wonder Woman outside the island, when she defies and discovers and transforms the world. It's a statement of the impact she has on those that hear of her powers and of her passion and creativity and charisma. Of the hilarious vibrancy and humor she finds in all things. She is Wonder Woman because she is the most wondorous human being you could meet in your life. Whatever name you choose for an analogur should in my view represent that personality. I like the name "Fantasia", but Promethea is actually a pretty good name too because of how it relates to the Myth of Prometheus (that gave power to the people so they could build and defy the gods) and because it alludes to the idea of promise/ potential. I've never read the Alan Moore book tho so I can't comment on how much I agree with his view of her.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-14-2021 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #3364
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Once again, I'm not trying to discuss her fighting style, I'm discussing her archetype and mindset. And while I do think Marston's era had some particular strengths that were lost through time, I still don't limit this interpretation to that era.

    My problem with Doom's doorway is that the Amazons are a liberation fantasy. What if women that historically were enslaved and abused were able to escape this world for a paradise. A place where they were free to live as they see fit and reach their full potential. I really like how Perez focussed on this idea of healing from trauma. But then he inserts this concept of the Doom's Doorway and now the Amazons aren't in that paradise for themselves, they are there to protect us, the people that hurt them.

    Imagine if you did this with Wakanda. This liberation utopia for an advanced civilization free of colonialism, and now they were only in that kingdom so they could protect Europe from monsters. It's even worse with the Amazons because in Perez's version these women had past lives where they were mistreated, and yet they carry the burden of protecting the world they escaped.

    Diana is the one that should adventure outside the Island seeking challenges and wanting to discover the wonders of the world, both beautiful and ugly. And along the way she carries with her the ideals of her birthplace, of love and community, and step by step she heals the world inadvertibly. The rest of the amazons are free to care about this world, but I see no reason to place that responsibility onto them.
    Can't that be interpreted as art reflecting life? That many women have all this societal pressure on them to be caregivers and protectors despite past mistreatment. What you just described actually seems like an interesting deep dive into the thoughts of some amazons about Dooms doorway, something a talented writer could explore. Dooms doorway at most has been a tool writers use to involve Themyscira and the amazons in stories besides being a one and done scenario in her origin. If nothing is happening in Themyscira why should a writer use it? that's basic story crafting. And the thing is Paradise Island is still a beautiful oasis and a fantasy place to feel at peace. Diana wants to relax or invite her friends to a festival or party, go to Themyscira but also... monsters have begun to escape from Dooms doorway and Diana needs to stop it, go to Themyscira. Isn't it amazing that it can work as both.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I remember the two dragons and the rainbow flames, but fire is none the less the most agressive of the elements and represents Aang at his most agressive.

    Again, I'm not saying Diana using violence makes her angry, but it is something she often does relunctually. She is forced to do it, but it's against her primal desires. It's a roadblock you put in a character that historically has been filled with a lack of agency and fulfillment. It holds her back from actually being a female fantasy because as Wolverine likes to say "I'm the best at what I do, and what I do isn't very nice". Her nature is against punching, but all we ever see is her punching or kicking or stabbing.
    Fire is more aggressive then using the blood of your opponent to force them to your will or sucking the air out of someone and suffocating them to death?

    I think this a very limited way to see what superheroes do. Have you considered that Diana may enjoy punching and kicking? Not for violence or inflicting pain, but as an art style, because it is an art style. In fact, in many disciplines of MMA its not about being a bully but controlling the battle. I believe Diana is someone that would take advantage of a person's aggression and bring them down by shifting her style of fighting.

    Now I certainly do not want Nu52 "what a day for battle" or "I love fighting" Wondy. But, even in the past she likes to spare, she trains, she teaches self defense, and she wasn't unaccustomed to throwing down with punching and kicking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Where do you take this idea that Wrestlers are warriors? I've never heard that in my life. The historical use of warrior was totally unrelated to wrestlers. Wrestlers and Warriors are both types of Fighters, but they are separate categories.

    And yes, a Wrestler can certainly can harm, but their core goal is decidedly unharmful. You can't have a boxer that doesn't harm. You Can't have fencing without armor. But little kids can wrestle without hurting each other.
    Wrestling was style used in war, it originated to use in combat. Its not just entertainment, are you thinking purely of WWE (a thing that's not fully "real" wrestling btw)? WWE is pure entertainment, but those guys and gals get hurt pretty badly. And Diana uses some of the quintessential WWE moves; headbutt, suplex, dropkick, etc... not say she can't but she does so much more. Also, again a warrior is just another word for fighter, its some one that fights or is experienced in warfare, which sounds like Diana tbh.
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  5. #3365
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The point of demigods in greek mythology was that they were mortal. Men birthed from a womb and that would one day die. It had nothing to do with their power.

    Gods were representations of aspects of the world, both abstract like Ares and War, and physical, like Apollo and the Sun. Their powers were that they could change shape and change reality and that their nature was connected to that element they represented. For Diana to be a god she must be immortal, have those reality shaping powers, and be mystically connected to a concept or aspect of the universe.

    That said, there are creatures that are creations of gods, or children of gods and also represent aspects of the universe, but aren't themselves gods. Nymphs for example are connected to specific lakes. The difference is in how they can be worshipped. You must respect a nymph, but you don't have to worship them in order to interact with their element. I also believe that they didn't transform reality around them, they just transformed themselves.
    1) This is comics, we don't have to follow the texts 100% of the time, look at the amazons.

    2) Herakles story was about his strength and overcoming his labor, which is why I used him as an example.

    3) Diana is immortal, there was even a book about it.

    4) The Gods can be all of that, still have Diana as immortal and not have her as a reality warper. Also, she can be connected to Hecate which grants her some magic/reality warping powers, still not on the level of say Ares.

    5) Because I said that Diana was above a demigoddess I pointed out she wasn't a Goddess either, just something in between, something unique.
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  6. #3366
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post

    Wrestling was style used in war, it originated to use in combat. Its not just entertainment, are you thinking purely of WWE (a thing that's not fully "real" wrestling btw)? WWE is pure entertainment, but those guys and gals get hurt pretty badly. And Diana uses some of the quintessential WWE moves; headbutt, suplex, dropkick, etc... not say she can't but she does so much more. Also, again a warrior is just another word for fighter, its some one that fights or is experienced in warfare, which sounds like Diana tbh.
    You are conflating a lot of concepts. A warrior is directly tied to war (it's in the name). But a fighter exists outside of war and warfare. Greco Roman wrestling as you pointed out came from a fighting style that existed in gladiator battles, this was decidedly not warfare. This was pure entertainment, and the least lethal of all gladiator contests (though I'm sure still pretty damn dangerous). I don't see why you are trying to define wrestler as a warrior when it never exists within warfare, which is the defining state of a warrior.

    And I don't see how a "peacekeeper" could enjoy punching. Again, I think Diana should enjoy combat, but this means grappling and dodging. Showmanship, not attacking. Of course she would still use punches, but only as a compliment to her various grappling moves. In my view.

  7. #3367
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    And again, the reason why i insist on defining Diana as a wrestler and not as a warrior is because a wrestler is the strongest fighter archetype that enjoys combat for it's own sake, rather than a warrior, who fights to defend something or conquer something. To me the idea of Diana as a peacekeeper is much more uplifting if her archetype indicates that to her combat is about testing yourself and others, which is the only thing Wrestlers do.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-14-2021 at 06:24 PM.

  8. #3368
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    And back to Doom's Doorway, I know why Perez wanted that narrative justification, but it does take away from the notion of Paradise Island as a place where they are able to heal their traumas and live for themselves rather than in servitude of Men. And there are so many other ways for you to create events happening on Paradise Island without corrupting the fantasy. Every time you have a contest the hierarchy changes in that island. Phil Jiminez had the civil war and the subsequent reorganization as they abandoned the notion of queens. This is right kind of conflict, rather than Doom's Doorway, which is the wrong type of plot device.

  9. #3369
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    You are conflating a lot of concepts. A warrior is directly tied to war (it's in the name). But a fighter exists outside of war and warfare. Greco Roman wrestling as you pointed out came from a fighting style that existed in gladiator battles, this was decidedly not warfare. This was pure entertainment, and the least lethal of all gladiator contests (though I'm sure still pretty damn dangerous). I don't see why you are trying to define wrestler as a warrior when it never exists within warfare, which is the defining state of a warrior.

    And I don't see how a "peacekeeper" could enjoy punching. Again, I think Diana should enjoy combat, but this means grappling and dodging. Showmanship, not attacking. Of course she would still use punches, but only as a compliment to her various grappling moves. In my view.
    I mean the same styles used in gladiator matches are the same styles used during Roman warfare, the two are not so different. Its only the setting that really changes the rules, one is sport the other is real world application. Diana can, again, operate in both settings. If you wanna have a tournament arch like in an anime for Diana to show off that one on one skill, that's fine. However, Diana faces different threats and enemies all the time, this means changing styles and ways to stop threats. Wrestling can work in certain scenarios but not all.

    Thing is, I don't totally disagree with what your saying, but your also limiting a lot to her because you didn't like the moments when a bad writer portrays her as that "warrior woman" trope. But, that's just it, it was a bad writer and a bad trope, you can be angry about that, doesn't mean its all got to go. Diana liking the art forms of fighting and wanting peace are not mutually exclusive, I mean look at some of Bruce Lee's teachings. People say that this is a massive contradiction to the character, but honestly it isn't. I don't need Diana saying she's not enjoying punching someone every time she does it, we can just except that its part of her duties as a defender of earth.

    For the record, if she's fighting one person and she's trying to stop a rampage then yeah, wrestling is going to play a major role in her style. But, is she just gonna tangle with an army or a group of villains the same way? I don't think that would be a smart move. Diana is a smart fighter after all, means she's going to incorporate a lot of forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    And again, the reason why i insist on defining Diana as a wrestler and not as a warrior is because a wrestler is the strongest fighter archetype that enjoys combat for it's own sake, rather than a warrior, who fights to defend something or conquer something. To me the idea of Diana as a peacekeeper is much more uplifting if her archetype indicates that to her combat it about testing yourself and others, which is the only thing Wrestlers do.
    So, Diana just fights cause its fun and she isn't defending anything? She deals with world conquering aliens and gods on day to day basis, she fights whole armies both living and dead, so on and so forth. I mean come on, she's a superhero, she defends the planet.
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  10. #3370
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    To me Diana should have left Paradise Island out of a desire for adventure. Thus, while she has ideals and does try to defend the world, her motivating factor should in my opinion by her inner desire for challenges. Imagine Amelia Earhart if she had fought in World War 2. She certainly would've felt a duty, but the reason why she would fly would be the thrill of it.

    The Wrestler archetype emphasizes her challenging spirit along with her unharmed strength. But when you say "warrior" the image you invoke doesn't have these qualities. When I read the word warrior, the conotations I picture are that of a sword wielding armored fighter in a war. This is Diana at her least interesting. Wrestler just has the right energy, of a fun and exciting version of Diana that we see from time to time.

  11. #3371
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    And back to Doom's Doorway, I know why Perez wanted that narrative justification, but it does take away from the notion of Paradise Island as a place where they are able to heal their traumas and live for themselves rather than in servitude of Men. And there are so many other ways for you to create events happening on Paradise Island without corrupting the fantasy. Every time you have a contest the hierarchy changes in that island. Phil Jiminez had the civil war and the subsequent reorganization as they abandoned the notion of queens. This is right kind of conflict, rather than Doom's Doorway, which is the wrong type of plot device.
    As if rehabilitation island can no longer exist or its only there for villains. Amazons can heal their traumas and still have Dooms doorway on the island. How many generations have past on the outside world from when the amazons where enslaved? I understand that they need a new home seeing as the outside world was clearly not ready for their messages and that they needed to heal and over come that trauma, however I don't think its actuate to suggest that even after 3,000+ years the amazons would still need, for lack of a better term, a "safe space". We are getting Amazonia Historia, hopefully soon, so that would be an interesting take if it decides to go that route. Not every amazon is a warrior and not all their warriors are tasked with defending the doorway, only a special few. The amazons are intelligent, competent, and prepared women, I think they can handle demons. The amazons are in service to the world, that includes women and everyone in-between too not just men. And the amazons still live for themselves... they have their own civilization and culture that is derived from multiple different ones that makes something unique, how does having a badass task of stopping monsters or using Dooms doorway as a prison for some of Diana's villains really take that away?

    Conflict itself ruins what you want Paradise Island to be as well. Its a place to heal trauma and its suppose to be practically perfect, so why have any conflict whatsoever. I mean even using Wakanda for an example like you did, we really only go there in flash backs or if a conflict is taking part there. Its just a story devise that frankly works just fine.
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  12. #3372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    To me Diana should have left Paradise Island out of a desire for adventure. Thus, while she has ideals and does try to defend the world, her motivating factor should in my opinion by her inner desire for challenges. Imagine Amelia Earhart if she had fought in World War 2. She certainly would've felt a duty, but the reason why she would fly would be the thrill of it.

    The Wrestler archetype emphasizes her challenging spirit along with her unharmed strength. But when you say "warrior" the image you invoke doesn't have these qualities. When I read the word warrior, the conotations I picture are that of a sword wielding armored fighter in a war. This is Diana at her least interesting. Wrestler just has the right energy, of a fun and exciting version of Diana that we see from time to time.
    Thing is she can have this aspect of her, but its not really a personality that should be front and center all the time. She can like adventure and all of what your saying, but still treat a situation like it deserves to be treated. Making her sense of adventure the default takes the gravitas of a lot of her moments and messages away because she's really only into for the thrill not the stakes. This is weirdly enough how modern day Hercules thinks and Diana is not Hercules.
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    Back to general controversial opinions.... I don't really have a place for Donna Troy in my own Wondy universe and frankly struggle to find a spot that isn't already filled by another character that I happen to like more then her. TBH, I would not mind if the "real" Donna Troy was actually the Superwoman and it stayed that way.
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  14. #3374
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Back to general controversial opinions.... I don't really have a place for Donna Troy in my own Wondy universe and frankly struggle to find a spot that isn't already filled by another character that I happen to like more then her. TBH, I would not mind if the "real" Donna Troy was actually the Superwoman and it stayed that way.
    I would love to see some creative team settle Donna in a small, Twin Peaksy, Northwest town, ..publishing her own Tig-esque lifestyle blog, while she battles dark, creepy forces. Like a mix of Buffy and Riverdale...? Then, I have to remind myself that a guy, named 'Peter David', wrote an award-winning comic, with, basically, the same premise, ..called Supergirl. It seems so unfair that Supergirl gets her own iconic city of weird, X-filesy characters, National City, which should TOTALLY be Wonder Woman's, after leaving Leesburg, ..the DCU's answer to Twin Peaks, a weird sci-fi, metamythical thing, which might have been perfect for DONNA TROY, daughter of futuristic, mythical Amazon utopia.

    Seems a little unfair. Did anybody in that planning meeting muse, aloud, "This sounds like a perfect set-up for a Donna Troy comic, doesn't it? Her being raised in the world of Greek myth and magic?" We'll never know. Seems unfair.

    Of course, nobody's bothered to do as much for her big sis, WONDER WOMAN; so, why should we expect any editorial entities bothering with Donna? I think that, because there's no apparent editorial imperative to give us a proper Wonder Woman Family, in spite of the efforts of Phil Jimenez, Gail Simone and Steve Orlando, ..any hope for serious development of Donna Troy seems dim. Misplaced...
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 04-14-2021 at 11:30 PM.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  15. #3375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The whole point of the lasso is that it is an unbreakable artifact that has reach and can restrain people. It's an extension of her grappling techniques. The sword and shield are obviously incompatible with this fighting style, but the lasso isn't whatsoever.
    Diana rarely, if ever, fights like a wrestler. And your point was that Diana would make sense to fight unarmed which means no lasso. You can't have it both ways.

    And why wouldn't wrestling make sense for Diana?
    I didn't say it didn't make sense. I said your view about how Diana approaches combat like a game or a sport makes no sense for the type of character she is or the type of stories she is in. Treating combat like a game or a sport is exactly the type of thing a bloodthirsty Wonder Woman would do, not someone who uses violence as simply a means to an end instead of it being the end itself.

    She grew up on Paradise Island. These people weren't fighting for their lives, they exercised for sport.
    They weren't just exercising and training for sport. The entire point of the tournament was choosing an Amazon strong and skilled enough to fight against evil in man's world. Diana wasn't off to the Olympics, she was fighting Nazis in World War 2 and other supervillains.

    They were athletes and above all others, Diana is the one that never needed a sword or a spear, or a bow. Why would amazons train with lethal weapons constantly instead of really testing their incredible strength and technique with wrestling. Unless you subscribe to the Doom's doorway concept, which I never liked because it takes away from the fantasy that the amazons represent.

    Wrestling is a much more appropriate way of approaching some of the themes that Marston himself put into his books, like the bdsm. Instead of the rope and chains thing being sexual, it's about dominance and the challenge of strength combined with technique.
    You are contradicting yourself. BDSM is inherently sexual. You cannot say the lasso is not sexual when the entire reason for its existence is because of the writer's fetishes. This just feels like mental gymnastics to justify using the lasso and getting rid of the sword because some people don't like it. And frankly, Diana being objectified like this is more troubling than having her use a sword sometimes.

    I think it's absolutely perfect and there are various examples of Diana wrestling over the years, from Marston to Kanighter to the modern age, both in comics and in other adaptations like that clip someone else posted above.
    And there are far more clips of her using non-wrestling techniques in battle. Diana is not a one-trick pony. You're just cherry-picking examples to prove a point here.

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