Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

I wish WW died and a male took off the mantle. I'm sure sexism would allow a male version to be more powerful. Since WW has been mostly a weaklink for 10 years now. Poor girl, don't take tha sword and shield away. The independent and powerful amazon would get trash the minute you take those away. Such a great feminist icon proving to girls they can be all they want. As long as their goal is to be cannon fodder. You go girl. Marston would be proud of seeing how far you have gone. Sigh

Look at Sensational Wonder Woman. Look at Wonder Woman Black & Gold. All these stories are out of continuity. DC doesn't care about how OP Diana is in a non canon digital first anthology series. Most of the writers on there are women. And yet as far you're concerned all those stories are offensive because she isn't OP and you go as far as saying that the writers are sexists don't you? Face it, not everyone agrees with your take on things. And it doesn't make them sexist or less fans of Wonder Woman. I don't care about how powerful Diana is. She can be lifting giant aircraft carriers or just a tank, makes no difference to me.

[SiegePerilous02]

And again, you and others resort to the time tested argument of story over powers. Why can't a Wonder Woman story do both?

I would love to read a good Wonder Woman story that has a good plot as well as establishing the powers that she was meant to have.

I don't think the people that argue the disrespect that Wonder Woman gets in stories because of her powerset is weakened is asking for just a brute force story. But it would be nice if people could argue that we want both story and her powers and not diminish one for the other!

We want stories that do both. That's probably why Marston, Perez, Jimenez and Rucka are fan favorites on this forum, including for posters like Nyssane and myself.

Literally nobody is saying that can't or shouldn't do both because it's a given that that's what we all want, but you and other posters only focus on the feats to the point where it comes across that it's the only thing you care about. To the point where we don't know if you have any opinions on Diana's character or themes or any other characters in this franchise.

[John Venus]

It's unfortunate when people reduce Wonder Woman down to simply just her powers and strength. I get that it's a superhero comics thing, particularly with DC, to see impressive feats of power, but damned if I don't rather like to see interesting stories that focus on the themes and messages of the character over the brute force.

Yeah, this. A lot of the DTV has focused heavily on her fight scenes and we've gotten some good fight scenes in her 2009 WW solo movie, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, Superman/Batman: Apocalypse and several other movies that followed. But what about her message? Her mythology? Lore? What about adding depth to the character?

[BiteTheBullet]

We want stories that do both. That's probably why Marston, Perez, Jimenez and Rucka are fan favorites on this forum, including for posters like Nyssane and myself.

Literally nobody is saying that can't or shouldn't do both because it's a given that that's what we all want, but you and other posters only focus on the feats to the point where it comes across that it's the only thing you care about. To the point where we don't know if you have any opinions on Diana's character or themes or any other characters in this franchise.

I like to focus on something that seems to be forgotten in the world of Wonder Woman, her feats. She is a freaking comic book character, a superhero, known for her powers and the like. We consistently get a watered down version of her to the point that I don't know if she could take on Booster freaking Gold!

I would love to have both story and powers, but sadly we only get one, and based off the current run of Cloonrad, I don't think we get either.

And I will not make excuses like a lot of posters here who keep saying story over powers. There is absolutely no reason for her not to have both. If so, get new writers.

Stop with the amnesia, power nerfing and or power loss stories. We don't get enough of her cutting loose as it is, so I don't need to see the powerless story arcs anymore!

Or....just cut her loose so a company can take good care of her like Marvel. I have absolutely no doubt they could handle a strong female in their world, in comic books or in their movie verse, and do her right.

[WonderLight789]

Look at Sensational Wonder Woman. Look at Wonder Woman Black & Gold. All these stories are out of continuity. DC doesn't care about how OP Diana is in a non canon digital first anthology series. Most of the writers on there are women. And yet as far you're concerned all those stories are offensive because she isn't OP and you go as far as saying that the writers are sexists don't you? Face it, not everyone agrees with your take on things. And it doesn't make them sexist or less fans of Wonder Woman. I don't care about how powerful Diana is. She can be lifting giant aircraft carriers or just a tank, makes no difference to me.

WW is akso hella weak in canon comics and movi3s nowadays. You seem to like abybtake on the character that portrays her as a generic super human character. I don't. I want WW to be super piwerful. It is part of what i like about her.

[WonderLight789]

Yeah, this. A lot of the DTV has focused heavily on her fight scenes and we've gotten some good fight scenes in her 2009 WW solo movie, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, Superman/Batman: Apocalypse and several other movies that followed. But what about her message? Her mythology? Lore? What about adding depth to the character?

WW 2017 did not have powerful action. It was a good origin story. But power wise it was weak. WW should be able to have both. Character moments and powerful action powerhouse style.

[SiegePerilous02]

I like to focus on something that seems to be forgotten in the world of Wonder Woman, her feats. She is a freaking comic book character, a superhero, known for her powers and the like. We consistently get a watered down version of her to the point that I don't know if she could take on Booster freaking Gold!

I would love to have both story and powers, but sadly we only get one, and based off the current run of Cloonrad, I don't think we get either.

And I will not make excuses like a lot of posters here who keep saying story over powers. There is absolutely no reason for her not to have both. If so, get new writers.

Stop with the amnesia, power nerfing and or power loss stories. We don't get enough of her cutting loose as it is, so I don't need to see the powerless story arcs anymore!

Or....just cut her loose so a company can take good care of her like Marvel. I have absolutely no doubt they could handle a strong female in their world, in comic books or in their movie verse, and do her right.

Is it really that forgotten if there aren't many of us who post here regularly and we all see the same points about the feats being made over and over again?

There are plenty of things to complain about with DC/WB's treatment of WW overall, but there is good stuff too. Posting only about what pisses us off over and over can reach the point of wanting to wallow in misery

[BiteTheBullet]

Yeah, this. A lot of the DTV has focused heavily on her fight scenes and we've gotten some good fight scenes in her 2009 WW solo movie, JL: Crisis on Two Earths, Superman/Batman: Apocalypse and several other movies that followed. But what about her message? Her mythology? Lore? What about adding depth to the character?

I have been very critical of the 2009 WW solo movie on account that they seemed to forget one of her best powers, flight. Otherwise it was not bad action wise. JL: Crisis on Two Earths was excellent for her action, but it was more of a Batman centered movie with the League as supporting characters. The same for Superman/Batman: Apocalypse--the Furies scene with Barda was excellent, but as the name implies, it was a Batman and Superman and ultimately a Supergirl movie. There was no hope for nuance or themes or messages as some of the commenters like to say.

I thought Bloodlines was a good movie. Both storytelling and feats. I would love more of this, although less Steve Trevor but to each his own.

I was hoping for a good movie in JL versus the Fatal Five, but when the newest character Jessica got introduced, I knew something bad was going to happen storywise. What took the entire Justice League to defeat the Fatal Five initially, and then when the tables were turned and we got to see Jessica take all of them down by herself, just....so ..... irritating.

But there are stories that can do Wonder Woman justice on both the storytelling front and action front. I would say Bloodlines was probably the best for both aspects, and Justice League Crisis on Two Earths had the best representation of Wondy fighting. Accolades for the Fury fight also.

[BiteTheBullet]

Is it really that forgotten if there aren't many of us who post here regularly and we all see the same points about the feats being made over and over again?

There are plenty of things to complain about with DC/WB's treatment of WW overall, but there is good stuff too. Posting only about what pisses us off over and over can reach the point of wanting to wallow in misery

I am not going to sugercoat a problem if it exists. And I keep hearing from posters here about storytelling versus powers. So I get the same thing from posters here, but in a sense reversed. They, the writers, should be able to get a handle on the powers that Diana has as well as how powerful she should be, which is top tier to such icons like Superman. And the writers should be able to tell a good story out of this.

Otherwise, don't write Wonder Woman if you can't keep that straight.

[Rightoya]

I0m not talking about a no super powers WW. I'm talking about killing the character for good. And let a man take over the mantle. I'm sure he would fare better thanb current WW on the power chart. I see no other reason outsider sexims at this point, to explain how much her power has declined. Even Aquaman gets better showings nowadays.

I am not sure that he would fare better, because i don't think DC is that sexist anymore, incompetent Wonder Woman writers would be probably still incompetent DC Wonder Man writers.

It's unfortunate when people reduce Wonder Woman down to simply just her powers and strength. I get that it's a superhero comics thing, particularly with DC, to see impressive feats of power, but damned if I don't rather like to see interesting stories that focus on the themes and messages of the character over the brute force.

I do think mystical41 is hyper focussed on feats but i have never seen any evidence that making Wonder Woman less powerful or outright weak makes her stories any better, i would even say there is more evidence for the opposite, but to be fair that might be related to the concept that a writer who don't cares about Wonder Woman probably not portrays her as powerful either and don't means someone couldn't write good stories with a weak Wonder Woman.

And i think what agitated mystical41 so much now, was this extremely stupid CBR list:

https://www.cbr.com/dc-characters-wo...an-never-beat/

Full of odd choices with even more odd explanations, factually wrong claims, and of course Superman if not even all Kryptonians somehow is just too overwhelmingly powerful and would destroy the outclassed Wonder Woman. Although that is just a guess based on the timing, tell me if i am wrong mystical41?

[I'm a Fish]

I like to focus on something that seems to be forgotten in the world of Wonder Woman, her feats. She is a freaking comic book character, a superhero, known for her powers and the like. We consistently get a watered down version of her to the point that I don't know if she could take on Booster freaking Gold!

I would love to have both story and powers, but sadly we only get one, and based off the current run of Cloonrad, I don't think we get either.

And I will not make excuses like a lot of posters here who keep saying story over powers. There is absolutely no reason for her not to have both. If so, get new writers.

Stop with the amnesia, power nerfing and or power loss stories. We don't get enough of her cutting loose as it is, so I don't need to see the powerless story arcs anymore!

Or....just cut her loose so a company can take good care of her like Marvel. I have absolutely no doubt they could handle a strong female in their world, in comic books or in their movie verse, and do her right.

…you’ve seen what Marvel has done to their female characters who are in Wonder Woman’s class, right? Both in the comics and the movies?

-Jean Grey and Storm: Both cool characters, both de-powered at one point for long periods of time. Movie: both sidelined heavily for Wolverine and turned into his love interests.

-Rouge: Actually had a cool backstory in the comics. Movie: Wolverines protégé

-Mystique (who’s not in Diana’s league but is popular): Was her own independent character but was turned into Magneto’s lackey and love interest (?) in the movies

-Captain Marvel (Ms.Marvel): Was put in a team book because her first series didn’t sell well, was raped in Avengers, powered but abandoned by Marvel in space, de-powered and sent back to Earth where she became a drunk.

Only became an A list because someone put in the time and the work to make her that (that same someone who is writing Historia).

Also the reason she doesn’t go out of print is because Marvel has to regularly release a title with the Captain Marvel name to keep the trademark. Movie: Was de-powered for 90% of it.

- Black Widow (also not Diana's league but popular, got a few more of those coming up): Comic wise, has done alright. Movie: A quote from her own actress, she was treated as a “piece of ass” in her debut. Marvel refused to make a movie of her until recently because their are sexist pigs everywhere in control of media.

- Wanda: Movie wise she's honestly one of the most developed MCU character because she's allowed to feel things. Comic wise has been tossed all over the place, her backstory is close to Donna Troy levels of retcon.

-Nebula: actually did a good job in the movies.

-Gimora: I don’t read many GotG comics so idk… Movies: Starlord’s love interest in the sequel, they did manage to keep her main arc about her relationship with her family so there's that.

I don’t know where this idea is coming from that Wonder Woman would do better at Marvel, or assuming that Marvel is more inclusive than WB, because they both had sexist, racist jerks in charge of their companies for decades.

Maybe now she would do better, but Marvel didn’t trust female lead superhero franchises enough to do anything with them until WB Wonder Woman movie was successful. They had all that time to take the lead and they didn’t. Owning Wonder Woman at any point prior to now wouldn't have changed that, and it's not like they don't heavily nerf their own characters compared to the comics either.

Edit: I hate when CBR turns my message into soup, lol.

[SiegePerilous02]

I am not going to sugercoat a problem if it exists. And I keep hearing from posters here about storytelling versus powers. So I get the same thing from posters here, but in a sense reversed. They, the writers, should be able to get a handle on the powers that Diana has as well as how powerful she should be, which is top tier to such icons like Superman. And the writers should be able to tell a good story out of this.

Otherwise, don't write Wonder Woman if you can't keep that straight.

You don't have to sugarcoat the problem, because there are plenty of historic problems with how DC treats the WW IP and they should be discussed. But it also doesn't need to be brought up in EVERY thread multiple times either. Otherwise it comes across as spamming, not discussion, which isn't enjoyable for anyone.

And the posters who say "storytelling over powers" are usually just saying it in response to the complaints about feats. The reverse posts wouldn't come up as much otherwise I imagine.

Â…youÂ’ve seen what Marvel has done to their female characters who are in Wonder WomanÂ’s class, right? Both in the comics and the movies?

-Jean Grey and Storm: Both cool characters, both de-powered at one point for long periods of time. Movie: both sidelined heavily for Wolverine and turned into his love interests.

-Rouge: (actually had a cool backstory in the comics) movie: Wolverines protégée

-Mystique (whoÂ’s not in DianaÂ’s league but is popular): Was her own independent character but was turned into MagnetoÂ’s lackey and love interest (?) in the movies

-Captain Marvel (Ms.Marvel): Was put in a team book because her first series didnÂ’t sell well, was raped in Avengers, powered and abandoned by marvel in space, de-powered and sent back to Earth where she became a drunk.

Only became an A list because someone put in the time and the work to make her that (that same someone who is writing Historia).

Also the reason she doesnÂ’t go out of print is because Marvel has to regularly release a title with the Captain Marvel name to keep the trademark. Movie: Was de powered for 90% of it.

- Black Widow: Comic wise, has done alright. Movie: A quote from her own actress, she was treated as a “piece of ass” in her debut. Marvel refused to make a movie of her until recently because their are sexist pigs everywhere in control of media.

-Nebula: actually did a good job in the movies.

-Gimora: I donÂ’t read many GotG comics so idkÂ… Movies: StarlordÂ’s love interest in the sequel.

I donÂ’t know where this riff-raff is coming from that Wonder Woman would do better at Marvel, or assuming that Marvel is more inclusive than WB, because surprise they both had sexist, racist jerks in charge of their companies for decades.

Maybe now she would do better, but Marvel didnÂ’t trust female lead superhero franchises enough to do anything with them until WB Wonder Woman movie was successful. They had all that time to take the lead and they didnÂ’t.

Not to mention some of the things they do to the civilian female characters, like their hate on for Mary Jane Watson and determination to get rid of her.

Marvel would treat her like trash, if they got her I doubt they'd prioritize her over their own females at this point. She'd fall behind Sue Storm and Jean Grey in importance, and they don't get consistent benefits either.

[Alpha]

WW is akso hella weak in canon comics and movi3s nowadays. You seem to like abybtake on the character that portrays her as a generic super human character. I don't. I want WW to be super piwerful. It is part of what i like about her.

Then at the very least don't call it sexist because as I pointed out, these aren't sexist writers, and DC doesn't care about how strong Diana is in a non canon digital first anthology series.

[Jim Kelly]

The privileged class still exerting their power, despite all the messaging on diversity--that's certainly a factor why female super-heroes don't get the respect they should. But there are other genres, media, industries, where stories about women get better play. It's really a factor of American super-hero comic books--and also American super-hero cinema. In these industries, the Powers That Be believe their market is testosterone fuelled, straight males--and especially white males. The executives just don't believe that female super-heroes are what the market wants. And if there are female super-heroes they have to act certain ways for the male market to buy them.

Bill Marston could not have known when he made that deal with Gaines that this is where mass market funny books would end up. At the time, he thought it was a great way to get his ideas to a large readership--male and female, young and old.

In hindsight, it would have been better to put the idea in an illustrated children's prose novel. Then maybe Disney or someone else would have adapted that story for an animated movie. The story of a girl on an island who leaves her Greek myth world for the world of men--a combination of THE TEMPEST, THE LITTLE MERMAID, PETER PAN, A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM, SNOW WHITE, PINOCCHIO, THE WIZARD OF OZ, ALICE IN WONDERLAND, THE ODYSSEY and ANNE OF GREEN GABLES.

[I'm a Fish]

Not to mention some of the things they do to the civilian female characters, like their hate on for Mary Jane Watson and determination to get rid of her.

Marvel would treat her like trash, if they got her I doubt they'd prioritize her over their own females at this point. She'd fall behind Sue Storm and Jean Grey in importance, and they don't get consistent benefits either.

I doubt so as well, and boggles my mind when people say she would do better at Marvel.

Most writers who write at DC, also write at Marvel. So if you think Marvel is going to "understand her more" or "do right by her" more than DC does, then no.