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  1. #3376
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana rarely, if ever, fights like a wrestler. And your point was that Diana would make sense to fight unarmed which means no lasso. You can't have it both ways.
    What are you talking about? The lasso isn't an actual weapon and just like in that clip of her fight with Superwoman, her using the lasso is an extension of her wrestling techniques. The technical term "unharmed fighting" doesn't matter since the lasso doesn't change the way she would wrestle, just enhance it. Unlike the sword and the shield, which force her to fight in an agressive manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post

    I didn't say it didn't make sense. I said your view about how Diana approaches combat like a game or a sport makes no sense for the type of character she is or the type of stories she is in. Treating combat like a game or a sport is exactly the type of thing a bloodthirsty Wonder Woman would do, not someone who uses violence as simply a means to an end instead of it being the end itself.
    Not at all because wrestling isn't inherently violent (as in, it doesn't inherently harm). Someone that enjoys the sport of it isn't bloodthirsty because wrestling doesn't cause harm. Your idea of Wonder Woman seems to be someone that hates her main job. Someone that doesn't like that she has to punch or kick or stab, and yet she does that every day. Which means that your version of Wonder Woman isn't a wish fulfillment at all since she is constantly relunctant and in anguish over what the world forces her to do. I'm proposing an archetypr and a fighting mindset that allow her to enjoy what she does without her using violence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They weren't just exercising and training for sport. The entire point of the tournament was choosing an Amazon strong and skilled enough to fight against evil in man's world. Diana wasn't off to the Olympics, she was fighting Nazis in World War 2 and other supervillains.
    The amazons train all year long. They trained before the tournament and after it. The tournament isn't why they train
    So my point stands that since they are treating combat as a test of skill and strength, wrestling makes much more sense than for them to throws arrows and swords at each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You are contradicting yourself. BDSM is inherently sexual. You cannot say the lasso is not sexual when the entire reason for its existence is because of the writer's fetishes. This just feels like mental gymnastics to justify using the lasso and getting rid of the sword because some people don't like it. And frankly, Diana being objectified like this is more troubling than having her use a sword sometimes.
    I'm not contradicting myself at all. The lasso stopped being used in the manner of bdsm ever since Marston left. I'm saying I want to bring back the idea of dominance that it represented, but without the sexual undertone, and instead as acessory in her grappling. How am I objectifying Diana since there's nothing sexual about what I'm proposing?
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-15-2021 at 03:04 AM.

  2. #3377
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    The New 52 God designs were 50/50. For every good one there was a bad or bland-looking one.

    I don't care for Yanick Paquette's Wonder Woman art.
    Last edited by Gaius; 04-15-2021 at 05:58 AM.

  3. #3378
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The New 52 God designs were 50/50. For every good one there was a bad or bland-looking one.

    I don't care for Yanick Paquette's Wonder Woman art.
    Strife-

    Hermes-*burns my eyes*

  4. #3379
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Can't that be interpreted as art reflecting life? That many women have all this societal pressure on them to be caregivers and protectors despite past mistreatment. What you just described actually seems like an interesting deep dive into the thoughts of some amazons about Dooms doorway, something a talented writer could explore.
    To me, it's the opposite of what Amazons should be (no matter how "interesting") - as the entire point was that they don't reflect the reality we (many of of us, anyway - can't speak to all cultures) live in where women have to sacrifice or be in service to others. And the "interesting" twist - "guess what - they weren't really completely free and living and shaping their own society for themselves, but still in service" - yuck. It's depressing. I don't need or want depressing out what was at first a rather empowering tale.

    I certainly have issues with the Amazons - some I don't know how to get around (their belief, and indeed it treated as a factual truth early on, of the superiority of one sex over another is a problem for me) - but this doesn't help any of those.

    Side note: I know insular/isolated societies tend as a rule not to progress as much technologically as those that learn from others in the real world. I'm just not sure we need the real world in this aspect of comics. Fantasy, escapism, and empowerment narratives can be fun, too. If I wanted to read about reality, I'd read a history book. Sort of the same thing with me wanting really good heroes and to see good triumph over evil instead of mass carnage and heroes doing bad things to others in their personal lives or taking a "ends justify the means" attitude - I don't want that sort of realism. It's not what I read comics for.

  5. #3380
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    To me, it's the opposite of what Amazons should be (no matter how "interesting") - as the entire point was that they don't reflect the reality we (many of of us, anyway - can't speak to all cultures) live in where women have to sacrifice or be in service to others. And the "interesting" twist - "guess what - they weren't really completely free and living and shaping their own society for themselves, but still in service" - yuck. It's depressing. I don't need or want depressing out what was at first a rather empowering tale.

    I certainly have issues with the Amazons - some I don't know how to get around (their belief, and indeed it treated as a factual truth early on, of the superiority of one sex over another is a problem for me) - but this doesn't help any of those.

    Side note: I know insular/isolated societies tend as a rule not to progress as much technologically as those that learn from others in the real world. I'm just not sure we need the real world in this aspect of comics. Fantasy, escapism, and empowerment narratives can be fun, too. If I wanted to read about reality, I'd read a history book. Sort of the same thing with me wanting really good heroes and to see good triumph over evil instead of mass carnage and heroes doing bad things to others in their personal lives or taking a "ends justify the means" attitude - I don't want that sort of realism. It's not what I read comics for.
    Yeah exactly. Paradise Island should be as much of a fantasy as Wakanda. It shouldn't be a place where everyone agrees with each other, but it should be a place where amazing things have happened and continue to happen, and a Paradise in the sense that you don't have to fear what you feared in Man's World. There are new dangers and issues unlike those on our world.

  6. #3381
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    To me, it's the opposite of what Amazons should be (no matter how "interesting") - as the entire point was that they don't reflect the reality we (many of of us, anyway - can't speak to all cultures) live in where women have to sacrifice or be in service to others. And the "interesting" twist - "guess what - they weren't really completely free and living and shaping their own society for themselves, but still in service" - yuck. It's depressing. I don't need or want depressing out what was at first a rather empowering tale.

    I certainly have issues with the Amazons - some I don't know how to get around (their belief, and indeed it treated as a factual truth early on, of the superiority of one sex over another is a problem for me) - but this doesn't help any of those.

    Side note: I know insular/isolated societies tend as a rule not to progress as much technologically as those that learn from others in the real world. I'm just not sure we need the real world in this aspect of comics. Fantasy, escapism, and empowerment narratives can be fun, too. If I wanted to read about reality, I'd read a history book. Sort of the same thing with me wanting really good heroes and to see good triumph over evil instead of mass carnage and heroes doing bad things to others in their personal lives or taking a "ends justify the means" attitude - I don't want that sort of realism. It's not what I read comics for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yeah exactly. Paradise Island should be as much of a fantasy as Wakanda. It shouldn't be a place where everyone agrees with each other, but it should be a place where amazing things have happened and continue to happen, and a Paradise in the sense that you don't have to fear what you feared in Man's World. There are new dangers and issues unlike those on our world.
    Yeah like a monster and demon prison to the underworld that some are tasked with defending.

    You guys are acting as if I'm throwing the amazons onto an island infested with demons or something. My reference to amazons not liking the task could be used as new motivation for Gail Simone's Circle members (aka antagonist amazons). Paradise Island is still fantasy, its still a beautiful place of escape, its still all the things its suppose to be. Fantasy, escapism, and empowerment all are still there. The amazons still go about their immortal lives doing whatever they want. And where did I ever say that wasn't the case? I still want advance technology and amazon culture in the book.

    Dooms doorway is nothing more then a cool plot device that Diana can use or it being used for story and narrative. It doesn't break whatever fantasy you want PI to be, in fact Dooms doorway is an element in fantasy, a extra dimensional prison or gateway to the underworld. Its her Arkham, her Phantom zone, its something writers and fans can point at and say "look the amazons have a very important task that they have to consider when interacting with the world".

    Ironically forgetting that Dooms doorway was also placed because the amazons responded to their own violence with more violence and bloodshed and needed to have a penance for that abandoning of their ways. And again, not all the Amazons are guards to the doorway, only a very select few. So every other amazon gets to go about their days.

    Wakanda is home to the world's source of vibranium, a mineral they constantly have to protect and make sure doesn't fall into the wrong hands. Its not Dooms doorway exactly, but hey even in your example its not a super ideal situation either. And also, the amazons have amazonium, so they can have a similar situation on top of Dooms doorway which means even more chances of using Themyscira and the amazons in stories outside of Wondy books.

    Once again we have the very real and rare chance of having everything here.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  7. #3382
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Hmm, forgot one but criticizing the writing of Injustice Wonder Woman, by both the game-makers and bad writers like Tom Taylor can't be waived away with "it's an alternate universe" as no one uses that to defend Frank Miller's WW in the DKR books.

  8. #3383
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Hmm, forgot one but criticizing the writing of Injustice Wonder Woman, by both the game-makers and bad writers like Tom Taylor can't be waived away with "it's an alternate universe" as no one uses that to defend Frank Miller's WW in the DKR books.
    Yeah no, bad writing is bad writing, I mean even from the games POV its suppose to be the "same" universe just "if" the bomb in metropolis went off and Superman killed Lois and their baby. But rather then go through the grieving process through an extreme extent, probably after killing Joker IMO, he becomes super-hitler. Also a huge chunk of characters act way OOC and just go along with Superman's "plans". It also plays into the "Superman is the most powerful and no one can stand a single chance against him, even people known for being able to fight him one on one" trope that I despise.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  9. #3384
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Yeah no, bad writing is bad writing, I mean even from the games POV its suppose to be the "same" universe just "if" the bomb in metropolis went off and Superman killed Lois and their baby. But rather then go through the grieving process through an extreme extent, probably after killing Joker IMO, he becomes super-hitler. Also a huge chunk of characters act way OOC and just go along with Superman's "plans". It also plays into the "Superman is the most powerful and no one can stand a single chance against him, even people known for being able to fight him one on one" trope that I despise.
    Except Alfred.

  10. #3385
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post

    Wakanda is home to the world's source of vibranium, a mineral they constantly have to protect and make sure doesn't fall into the wrong hands.
    They don't protect vibranium for the good of mankind, they do it to secure their own kingdom. The amazons are people that isolated themselves for their own personal benefit, not for the rest of the world, or that's how it should be.

    And Doom's Doorway isn't just an incidental feature as you pointed out. It's the whole reason why they are given that island along with immortality. In fact, Perez made it so that all the amazons had the duty of protecting mankind, even before they came to the island, and Doom's Doorway is just an extension of this responsibility they have to their former abusers. And this is how it destroys the fantasy of the amazons, since it inherently makes their paradise depend on them protecting those that harmed them.

    The amazons that leave Paradise Island should do so out of their own desire to reconnect with it, not out of duty. They sacrifice their place in paradise so that they can be with men and women of our world. I think any plot device that changes the fundamental nature of that sacrifice is a bad plot device.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-15-2021 at 01:11 PM.

  11. #3386
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Doom's Doorway is cool, certainly better than lot of the stuff Marston had on the island, so all for it being a part of Themyscira.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Yeah no, bad writing is bad writing, I mean even from the games POV its suppose to be the "same" universe just "if" the bomb in metropolis went off and Superman killed Lois and their baby. But rather then go through the grieving process through an extreme extent, probably after killing Joker IMO, he becomes super-hitler. Also a huge chunk of characters act way OOC and just go along with Superman's "plans". It also plays into the "Superman is the most powerful and no one can stand a single chance against him, even people known for being able to fight him one on one" trope that I despise.
    Mine too, comes off as Superman writers being upset over Batman surpassing Superman since DKR so they just have Clark take it on the rest of the DC universe.

    Injustice is probably the big reason I've soured on Diana being particularly friendly with Bruce or Clark since it has just about every bad cliche that defines her relationship with them; arm candy for one of them, punching bag for one of them, and moral failure to be lectured to. Red Son, Kingdom Come, Sacrifice/Infinite Crisis, DCeased, the DCAU, etc
    Last edited by Gaius; 04-15-2021 at 01:03 PM.

  12. #3387
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Doom's Doorway is cool, certainly better than lot of the stuff Marston had on the island, so all for it being a part of Themyscira.
    In what way?

  13. #3388
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Not particular controversial opinion I have the strongest of feelings about, more a gripe, but the only thing I really don’t like about Wonder Woman: Year One is the “Year One” title. More prefer it when the characters origin stories had their own titles unique to themselves rather than just taking Miller’s title and making a brand out of it.

  14. #3389
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Not particular controversial opinion I have the strongest of feelings about, more a gripe, but the only thing I really don’t like about Wonder Woman: Year One is the “Year One” title. More prefer it when the characters origin stories had their own titles unique to themselves rather than just taking Miller’s title and making a brand out of it.
    It should be called Wonder Woman: DC use this story as a basis for a Wonder Woman tv series.

  15. #3390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Not particular controversial opinion I have the strongest of feelings about, more a gripe, but the only thing I really don’t like about Wonder Woman: Year One is the “Year One” title. More prefer it when the characters origin stories had their own titles unique to themselves rather than just taking Miller’s title and making a brand out of it.
    I understand your frustration, and I don't disagree. However, from a marketing standpoint, "Year One" immediately tells your consumers that this is an easy jumping-in point for a character they may want to know more about. Also, Diana's Year One trade released around the time of the 2017 film, so anyone looking for a trade to help them get into the character's comic book persona, Year One lets them know they'll get an easy and approachable tale with a clear beginning and ending.

    From what I remember of comic book trade sales that year, Year One did had an amazing run on the charts.

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