Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Perseus]

I mean this isn't a hot take, but my personal nemesis for Diana is Circe. Big name, tons of back story, power house witch, morally complex yet just their to piss on Diana's happiness at times, trade mark looks IMO, and she's already in the big 3 villains in line for that role.

What are our definitions for being an arch-enemy? Because, it seems to vary a bit. I don't think Cheetah's origins even with adding the vices of greed and jealousy really make arch-enemy material. Important 100%, Diana is the kind of person to try her absolute damnness to try and help someone that was once her friend, but Barbara, despite some genuine moments of sympathy, deep down doesn't want it. I think at least. This doesn't mean she isn't a threat physically, after all there are a bunch of supervillains that aren't nemesis material that can slap around the best of them.

[Perseus]

My controversial opinion of the day, Cheetah just doesn't work as Diana's archenemy regardless of how "iconic" she is. Devastation is at this point the best candidate even though she has only been used in two WW runs (and a few other titles) and if she was used more often she would be without a question.

She combines the most important aspects of Ares, Dr Psycho, Circe, and even Cheetah. Devastation just wants to spread pain and mistrust, and break down society. She was made in the perverted image of an innocent child, which visually would be the hardest thing for Diana to destroy (since it represents the only true innocence there is in the world). Devastation has implanted vicious desires onto other people, which is how she made a whole town of people kill each other. And she even made Cassie Sandsmark almost kill Wonder Woman by creating a psyhic illusion. And she is of course a physical challenge as well (but that's not really a requirement for an archenemy, case in point Joker and Lex Luthor).

Deva is just an evil Wonder Woman, by that Definition Superwoman would also be Diana's archenemy. Archenemies need something more then just being the opposite of their heroes. And, ironically, Deva would and does look better being Diana's age.

[Guy_McNichts]

I mean this isn't a hot take, but my personal nemesis for Diana is Circe. Big name, tons of back story, power house witch, morally complex yet just their to piss on Diana's happiness at times, trade mark looks IMO, and she's already in the big 3 villains in line for that role.

I always favored Circe myself. For reasons already stated, but for me a key thing was how she reflected Wonder Woman on an fundamental level. Diana looks at people and sees the best in them, believing deep down they're good and can be better. Circe looks at people and sees the worst, believing them to be nothing more than savage beasts. Animals.


I do wish we would see more of Devastation though. Even if she's not arch material--she strikes me are more something like the Venom to Diana's Spider-Man--she's a lot of fun and more should be done with her.

[Alpha]

Deva is way more than just an evil Wonder Woman. She has an analogue origin and equal strength, but that's it.

First of all, Devastation is a master of psychological warfare. She can change her age whichever way it suits her. When she fights Diana she deliberately makes herself a child because she knows it makes it harder for Diana to attack her. It's supposed to be uncomfortable. Thematically it's a perversion Diana's very soul because of how far she has to go in order to fix Man's world. Even a child can be the great threat to the world. It's to me right in line with when Diana has to fight Silver Swan and the rebirth version of Cheetah.

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Second, she is able to use Diana's allies against her. Like here where she creates a psyhic illusion for Cassie that she and Devastation are each other. This is some Dr Psycho and Circe level BS
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And she has the power to create mass hysteria and violence, like when she destroys a whole town simply by confusing the inhabitants to kill each other. This is a Ares type disaster
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[Alpha]

Her twisted mind traumatizing a young family with psychological traps that lead the mother to kill a father without even realizing it.
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Her convincing a kid to kill his teacher just to impress her at school.
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Her starting Confederate uprisings s all over the country with a powerful gas
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[Gaius]

Yara has so far been the least interesting in all the Wonder Girl-books she's been featured in. At the moment I'm more interested in the side plots of that book involving Cassie, Artemis, and the Bana/Themysciran tribes than Yara's plotline.

[Alpha]

What are our definitions for being an arch-enemy?

I think what defines a fully realized Arch-Enemy is that they are the best at exploiting a hero's biggest insecurity. Joker makes Bruce feel like he himself is a deranged maniac whose mission isn't helping anyone.

Lex Luthor is the best at making Superman feel unworthy of his power. Luthor built everything he has, and for better or for worse, Luthor has changed the world over time. What has Superman done other than force things to stay the same? (This is what Luthor tells Clark, not necessarily reality).

The problem with finding an arch enemy to Diana is with finding the best villain to exploit her biggest insecurity continuously. Diana came from an utopia to change human nature itself and challenge every human being in the world into being the greatest person they can be. I think something here oughta be the source of Diana's insecurity.

Ultimately, I don't think the insecurity will be internal. I don't think Diana should be the kind of person to doubt herself. I think the most likely exploit would be her doubting others. A villain that could make Diana distrust eveyone, even with the use of her lasso. Diana has always wanted to be connected to people, the hardest thing for her is probably having to be without others.

[Koriand'r]

That's a great argument for Devastation, more should be done with her.

[I'm a Fish]

I always favored Circe myself. For reasons already stated, but for me a key thing was how she reflected Wonder Woman on an fundamental level. Diana looks at people and sees the best in them, believing deep down they're good and can be better. Circe looks at people and sees the worst, believing them to be nothing more than savage beasts. Animals.


I do wish we would see more of Devastation though. Even if she's not arch material--she strikes me are more something like the Venom to Diana's Spider-Man--she's a lot of fun and more should be done with her.

And then Johns put those exact words into Cheetahs mouth, lol.

[Alpha]

That's a good thematic connection, but the problem is that Cheetah isn't convincing whatsoever. I'm not talking about a speech. Cheetah just doesn't do anything to create a danger of Diana actually coming to believe that she can't trust, love, or defend anyone.

And an Arch Enemy can't just plant the seeds of destruction, they have to fully exploit that insecurity until the end of time in a way the hero simply can't deny or ever overcome.

[I'm a Fish]

That's a good thematic connection, but the problem is that Cheetah isn't convincing whatsoever. I'm mot talking about a speech. Cheetah just doesn't do anything to create a danger of Diana actually coming to believe that she can't trust, love, or defend anyone.

And an Arch Enemy can't just plant the seeds of destruction, they have to fully exploit that insecurity until the end of time in a way the hero simply can't deny or ever overcome.

Yeah well, Cheetah's never been big on manipulating people, more-so hunting them.

If we're going all in on what Perez wanted between Diana and Cheetah's relationship, it was that Cheetah is a personification of everyone's worst impulses. She's greedy and selfish, a literal beast that devours other people for her own goals of self-preservation.

[Primal Slayer]

That brings back memories of Super Cheetah

[I'm a Fish]

Man Sups just can't catch a break. Both Circe and Cheetah turn him into a cat.

[Alpha]

Yeah well, Cheetah's never been big on manipulating people, more-so hunting them.

If we're going all in on what Perez wanted between Diana and Cheetah's relationship, it was that Cheetah is a personification of everyone's worst impulses. She's greedy and selfish, a literal beast that devours other people for her own goals of self-preservation.

I'll state it again, a fully realized arch enemy doesn't just represent the opposite of a hero, they are the best at exploiting the hero's biggest insecurity. They create scenarios that lead the hero to the brink of not wanting to be heroes anymore.

With Wonder Woman I think part of it is the scene in the 2017 movie where she kills the general and then sees that humanity is still fighting with each other. But even that doesn't go far enough. I think Diana's arch enemy can't just make Diana feel hopeless. He or she must totally isolate Diana, make her distrust everyone, including Steve, including Etta, including Hippolyta.

[Perseus]

Deva is way more than just an evil Wonder Woman. She has an analogue origin and equal strength, but that's it.

First of all, Devastation is a master of psychological warfare. She can change her age whichever way it suits her. When she fights Diana she deliberately makes herself a child because she knows it makes it harder for Diana to attack her. It's supposed to be uncomfortable. Thematically it's a perversion Diana's very soul because of how far she has to go in order to fix Man's world. Even a child can be the great threat to the world. It's to me right in line with when Diana has to fight Silver Swan and the rebirth version of Cheetah.

IMG_20210804_004303.jpg

Second, she is able to use Diana's allies against her. Like here where she creates a psyhic illusion for Cassie that she and Devastation are each other. This is some Dr Psycho and Circe level BS
IMG_20210804_004505.jpg

And she has the power to create mass hysteria and violence, like when she destroys a whole town simply by confusing the inhabitants to kill each other. This is a Ares type disaster
IMG_20210804_004415.jpg

I think what defines a fully realized Arch-Enemy is that they are the best at exploiting a hero's biggest insecurity. Joker makes Bruce feel like he himself is a deranged maniac whose mission isn't helping anyone.

Lex Luthor is the best at making Superman feel unworthy of his power. Luthor built everything he has, and for better or for worse, Luthor has changed the world over time. What has Superman done other than force things to stay the same? (This is what Luthor tells Clark, not necessarily reality).

The problem with finding an arch enemy to Diana is with finding the best villain to exploit her biggest insecurity continuously. Diana came from an utopia to change human nature itself and challenge every human being in the world into being the greatest person they can be. I think something here oughta be the source of Diana's insecurity.

Ultimately, I don't think the insecurity will be internal. I don't think Diana should be the kind of person to doubt herself. I think the most likely exploit would be her doubting others. A villain that could make Diana distrust eveyone, even with the use of her lasso. Diana has always wanted to be connected to people, the hardest thing for her is probably having to be without others.

I mean judging by these statements I really think it should be Circe.

I like Deva, I 100% agree that more should be done with her, but I don't see her as archenemy material. Circe has done similar things and with more style. I don't have time to dig through everything and I don't have everything to do so.

Deva also doesn't have any experience with the world that shapes her view. She was just created by the Titians as a response to the Gods creating Diana. She's evil because the Titans designed her that way. Lex had a horrible childhood and brought himself up, in his mind he "earned" his power. Joker's most famous origin had him have "one really bad day". Circe had The Odyssey to explain her distain for the world and the people in it. Add on the JLD retelling of her origin where she married to the betterment of her people only for her husband to be a monster and her people turning on her for killing him. Compare that to Diana loving the world and wanting to explore it and seeing the best in it.