Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Agent Z]

Watching Marvel's F&TWS and it speaks to how well Marvel has established Cap's shield and what it represents that fans are having visceral reactions to someone tainting it's legacy. I also remember how shocked people where when Thor's hammer was destroyed in Ragnarok and when Cap lifted the hammer in Endgame.

We shouldn't have to debate whether Wonder Woman should use a sword or lasso anymore than we should be debating whether Cap should be using a shield or gun or whether Thor should be using sword instead of a hammer.

We aren't debating on whether Diana should use a sword or lasso. What we have is people acting like the lasso is non-existent because she now has other weapons she uses even if the use of the lasso still surpasses the sword. Basically, what we have is people going "Not my Wonder Woman".

[Agent Z]

Diana didn't use a sword that much before Xena appeared (not as much as she has recently),

She still used one.

and all that other stuff you listed was in place well before Xena was invented. They are not issues of concern, so why bring it up?

I bring them up because its silly to complain about Diana being a Xena ripoff for things she had before Xena even existed.

The Amazon thing in particular is more strongly associated with Gabrielle anyway.

How? Xena was an Amazon princess. Gabrielle was actually unusual for an Amazon because she refused to kill.

I do agree that the comparisons to Xena are often shallow, but mostly because I think Xena is a much better character than the overly aggressive sword wielding Diana we get in stuff like Johns' New 52 output. We love Xena for Xena, that doesn't mean we want Diana become like her, especially as just a pale imitation.

Well we can agree on this much I suppose.

And while there is no guarantee the lasso will be lost, we shouldn't rule it out either. Sometimes new controversial takes on characters gain traction and coincide with an upsurge in popularity, making it more difficult to move on from it. Look what happened to Batman after Frank Miller.

I don't think Miller's take on Batman is comparable. Johns's sword swinging moron has been universally panned whereas Miller's take on Batman gained traction because it was popular, at least for a time. The first WW movie shows the sword and lasso can co-exist so clearly her having the sword isn't the problem. It's just an easy target.

[Rightoya]

Honestly there's a LONG list of reasons to use a magic shield... really really... long...
Shields are THE stereotypical defensive device. When you're a superhero it's not even about protecting yourself! Being a superhero means protecting others.

Right:

[WonderLight789]

She actually hurt Steppenwolf in the Snyder Cut and she used the bracelet explosion power. And Superman showing up to help her after she'd already done major damage to him is different than him coming to her rescue. And no, she did not go down in two hits from Superman. She also killed Steppenwolf because, what the hell else was she supposed to do with him? Send him to a prison that could not hold him?

Superman still did far more damage to steppen than her. And yes, snyder jl still had Superman easily overpowering WW. There was no real fight there. Super human warrior woman is the best we got. WW is supposed to be far more than that. I want major feats of strength, speed and durability over sword and shield.

[rayray1127]

How? Xena was an Amazon princess. Gabrielle was actually unusual for an Amazon because she refused to kill.

Xena was NOT an Amazon princess, Gabrielle was through Right of Caste. Xena's associations with them were loose until later in the middle seasons.

[I'm a Fish]

Black Widow using violence and Black Widow being aggressive are two different things. The former is just standard superhero stuff, the latter is describing her overall personality. Her beating Happy in a sparring match he insisted on is not her being aggressive.

And as for overwhelming aggressive behavior from women:

* Tony blew up his living room in anger over the Ten Rings using his weapons, beat up his friend while drunk and nearly killed Bucky when he found out he killed his parents under mind control.

* Thor invaded another realm and nearly caused an interplanetary war, attacked the Avengers in the first team up film rather than explain himself and choked Tony for creating Ultron.

* Ant-Man is introduced fighting with another inmate as part of a some weird goodbye ritual. Then we have Hank Pym in a flashback bashing a guy's nose.

* Drax didn't get the nickname "Destroyer" for no reason.

* The Hulk needs no explanation.

The women in the MCU (with the exception of Nebula and maybe Wanda) aren't anymore aggressive than most of the men. Maybe if you compare them to Steve alone it stands out but their behavior isn't anything unusual when you look at the MCU as a whole and their relationship with violence. Peggy's two instances in the Captain America movie are kind of OOC for her given how she acts the rest of the time. Yes Diana killed people in that scene but it was only in service to saving innocents.

Well, if you recall in a previous post I did say "Do we really want to tell people you have to be aggressive to be taken seriously in media? Man or woman, it's not healthy."

The plot of Thor's first film was centered on Thor being reprimanded for his overly violent behavior. Odin basically went "you're to violent and you need to be taught a lesion" then precedes to depower him, and tosses him onto Earth. Drax was called out for his behavior by Rocket Racoon (of all people) when his need for revenge got the better of him and cost the team the Stone. Ironman, Thor, Hulk, Drax, even Rocket Racoon, all of their respective character arc by Endgame conclude with them being more mellow, with Hulk (a character known for being aggressive and violent) flat out being replaced by Banner who detests violence.

Edit: (Also, if you'll forgive me for not seeing IM2 since it came out in theaters, but I'm sure Tony got reprimanded for that behavior as well.)

Also the Ironman vs Thor vs Cap fight was made to halt the progression of the plot, emphasized by Cap insisting that they stop fighting, so the movie itself called it pointless that they be fighting each other.

The Ant-Man intro fight was created to set-up Hope beating Scott up as proof for why she should have the suit and not Scoot...

I don't recall a woman in any of these films being reprimanded for unnecessary violence (unless they started out as a villain such as Nebula and Wanda, remember Wanda was the villain in WandaVision), and it's usually set up as something the audience should encourage, (like Hope punching Scott...) like a, "You go girl!" moment.

[SiegePerilous02]

She still used one.

There aren't a lot of comics between the Golden Age and COIE where she used one, and even afterward it wasn't nearly as common as Xena frequently using hers. The reason people (rightly or wrongly) draw the comparison to Xena when she has the sword is because it simply was not as common as you're making it out to be.

I bring them up because its silly to complain about Diana being a Xena ripoff for things she had before Xena even existed

But the only thing people bring up are the sword and I guess now the movie costume. And it's overly simplistic to call her a Xena ripoff based on those, but again it's due to her wielding a sword not being that common place before Xena or even for a while afterward.

How? Xena was an Amazon princess. Gabrielle was actually unusual for an Amazon because she refused to kill.

Xena was never an Amazon. Her mother owned a tavern in Amphipolis, she isn't really a literal princess at all. All of her interactions with the Amazons come through plots related primarily to Gabrielle.

[John Venus]

We aren't debating on whether Diana should use a sword or lasso. What we have is people acting like the lasso is non-existent because she now has other weapons she uses even if the use of the lasso still surpasses the sword. Basically, what we have is people going "Not my Wonder Woman".

So?

The lasso is her primary tool. It's meant to serve a narrative and thematic purpose. When modern day creators choose to de-emphasize it in favor of a sword and shield simply because they think it's cooler, of course long time fans and for fans for whom the lasso means something are going to annoying. Especially when the competition are doing a better job of depicting their respective heroes weapons/tools.

Wonder Woman using a sword and shield was rare between her inception and KC. It was the latter that popularized the idea of her using a magic.

Also, dude, take a chill pill. Someone doesn't like *your* Wonder Woman? Big whoop. It's not the end of the world. It's just a difference of opinion.

[Perseus]

I happen to think Egg Foo's New God of Apokolips/Chang Tzu identity is pretty sweet and would tie a Wondy villain to Darkseid nicely.

[PopQuezy]

So?

The lasso is her primary tool. It's meant to serve a narrative and thematic purpose. When modern day creators choose to de-emphasize it in favor of a sword and shield simply because they think it's cooler, of course long time fans and for fans for whom the lasso means something are going to annoying. Especially when the competition are doing a better job of depicting their respective heroes weapons/tools.

Wonder Woman using a sword and shield was rare between her inception and KC. It was the latter that popularized the idea of her using a magic.

Also, dude, take a chill pill. Someone doesn't like *your* Wonder Woman? Big whoop. It's not the end of the world. It's just a difference of opinion.

I keep seeing people say this, but is this really true? Regardless of what people thought about Wonder Woman 1984, that movie is a love letter to the lasso. You literally can't have the movie function, progress, and conclude without it.

There are many Wonder Woman comic covers that emphasize the lasso, and based on what we've been shown of Wonder Woman: Black and Gold, the lasso is one of the reasons for the title and is getting prominence in the stills released so far.

I don't read Justice League, but at least in the Wonder Woman comics, the lasso and bracelets are her primary tools. Even in this thread, people have discussed how Diana often wields the sword and shield but does not use them in favor of her lasso and bracers.

I don't see how D.C. is not respecting the lasso when: they have children's books devoted to the lasso like the one below and there is one featuring Cheetah as the main villain, they have merchandise devoted to the lasso including jewelry, and regardless of how popular the sword and shield may be - I'm not a fan let me be clear - if you ask people about Wonder Woman tools I'm sure the lasso and the invisible plane would be the first two things mentioned.

The lasso isn't going anywhere.

Wonder Woman Lasso.jpg

[WonderLight789]

I keep seeing people say this, but is this really true? Regardless of what people thought about Wonder Woman 1984, that movie is a love letter to the lasso. You literally can't have the movie function, progress, and conclude without it.

There are many Wonder Woman comic covers that emphasize the lasso, and based on what we've been shown of Wonder Woman: Black and Gold, the lasso is one of the reasons for the title and is getting prominence in the stills released so far.

I don't read Justice League, but at least in the Wonder Woman comics, the lasso and bracelets are her primary tools. Even in this thread, people have discussed how Diana often wields the sword and shield but does not use them in favor of her lasso and bracers.

I don't see how D.C. is not respecting the lasso when: they have children's books devoted to the lasso like the one below and there is one featuring Cheetah as the main villain, they have merchandise devoted to the lasso including jewelry, and regardless of how popular the sword and shield may be - I'm not a fan let me be clear - if you ask people about Wonder Woman tools I'm sure the lasso and the invisible plane would be the first two things mentioned.

The lasso isn't going anywhere.

Wonder Woman Lasso.jpg

Featuring the lasso in many covers does not equal treating the lasso with a lot of respect. The sword and shield already take away spotlight from her own powers. And the lasso is suffering to some extent too. Same with the bracelets since that stupid shield came along.

[Gaius]

I keep seeing people say this, but is this really true? Regardless of what people thought about Wonder Woman 1984, that movie is a love letter to the lasso. You literally can't have the movie function, progress, and conclude without it.

There are many Wonder Woman comic covers that emphasize the lasso, and based on what we've been shown of Wonder Woman: Black and Gold, the lasso is one of the reasons for the title and is getting prominence in the stills released so far.

I don't read Justice League, but at least in the Wonder Woman comics, the lasso and bracelets are her primary tools. Even in this thread, people have discussed how Diana often wields the sword and shield but does not use them in favor of her lasso and bracers.

I don't see how D.C. is not respecting the lasso when: they have children's books devoted to the lasso like the one below and there is one featuring Cheetah as the main villain, they have merchandise devoted to the lasso including jewelry, and regardless of how popular the sword and shield may be - I'm not a fan let me be clear - if you ask people about Wonder Woman tools I'm sure the lasso and the invisible plane would be the first two things mentioned.

The lasso isn't going anywhere.

Wonder Woman Lasso.jpg

I have to agree. I don't care for DC giving the sword equal prominence to the lasso, at least in images they like to use to promote WW, but I think it's doubtful it'd ever fully supplant the lasso.

[marhawkman]

She actually hurt Steppenwolf in the Snyder Cut and she used the bracelet explosion power. And Superman showing up to help her after she'd already done major damage to him is different than him coming to her rescue. And no, she did not go down in two hits from Superman. She also killed Steppenwolf because, what the hell else was she supposed to do with him? Send him to a prison that could not hold him?

One interesting note is that Diana has a relatively defensive fighting stance. In BvS she tanked DOOMSDAY!

[Alpha]

One of my issues with the sword is that I think it puts her into the wrong archetype. Diana shouldn't be a warrior, she should be a wrestler. She doesn't seek to attack, she seeka to dominate. Or at least that's the way I like her.

[John Venus]

I keep seeing people say this, but is this really true? Regardless of what people thought about Wonder Woman 1984, that movie is a love letter to the lasso. You literally can't have the movie function, progress, and conclude without it.

There are many Wonder Woman comic covers that emphasize the lasso, and based on what we've been shown of Wonder Woman: Black and Gold, the lasso is one of the reasons for the title and is getting prominence in the stills released so far.

I don't read Justice League, but at least in the Wonder Woman comics, the lasso and bracelets are her primary tools. Even in this thread, people have discussed how Diana often wields the sword and shield but does not use them in favor of her lasso and bracers.

I don't see how D.C. is not respecting the lasso when: they have children's books devoted to the lasso like the one below and there is one featuring Cheetah as the main villain, they have merchandise devoted to the lasso including jewelry, and regardless of how popular the sword and shield may be - I'm not a fan let me be clear - if you ask people about Wonder Woman tools I'm sure the lasso and the invisible plane would be the first two things mentioned.

The lasso isn't going anywhere.

I'm not talking about WW84. I'm talking about the Nu52 comics, animated movies including the JLU based JL vs Fatal Five, Snyder movies, it's only recently thanks to Rebirth that the lasso has reasserted itself again and the argument about the lasso also ties into the discussion about how WW is depicted, since there is still this perception among a large contingent of the audience that she is a simple warrior woman who kills for funsies.