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  1. #4366
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    And then Johns put those exact words into Cheetahs mouth, lol.

    I actually really like this look for Cheetah, the red hair contrasts her cheetah form perfectly and the jewelry wasn't a bad touch.

    Also, shame Tony Daniel didn't get to draw Diana a ton in rebirth, I like his style though his action panels can be hard to follow at times.
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  2. #4367
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I actually really like this look for Cheetah, the red hair contrasts her cheetah form perfectly and the jewelry wasn't a bad touch.

    Also, shame Tony Daniel didn't get to draw Diana a ton in rebirth, I like his style though his action panels can be hard to follow at times.
    I do prefer her Sharp Rebirth book but I do miss the long red hair, even if it gave more of a lion look at times than a Cheetah.

  3. #4368
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    My problem with Circe as Diana's arch is that she's thousands of years old and Diana's presents could easily pass as a blip in her life.

    Obviously the story takes place from Diana's perspective so it's not going to feel like that most of the time, and 3 attempts have been made with Circe to give her a connection with Diana before she was even born through the "prophecy" angle, but the first two fall kind-of flat when they were self fulfilling prophecies.

    But it's like, Circe is this powerful, this wicked, and she hasn't succeeded? Or were other people there to stop her for thousands of years, because that makes Diana and Circe's feud less special. (And why Hippolyta works better if she's the one who banished Circe in the first place.)

    Maybe I just have to go back and re-read her introductory issues in Perez's run, because I remember Circe's motives to target Diana specifically being held together by tape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I do prefer her Sharp Rebirth book but I do miss the long red hair, even if it gave more of a lion look at times than a Cheetah.
    Sharp's Cheetah all-the-way.

    The hair looks nice for action shots though.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 08-03-2021 at 07:59 PM.
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  4. #4369

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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    I mean this isn't a hot take, but my personal nemesis for Diana is Circe. Big name, tons of back story, power house witch, morally complex yet just their to piss on Diana's happiness at times, trade mark looks IMO, and she's already in the big 3 villains in line for that role.

    What are our definitions for being an arch-enemy? Because, it seems to vary a bit. I don't think Cheetah's origins even with adding the vices of greed and jealousy really make arch-enemy material. Important 100%, Diana is the kind of person to try her absolute damnness to try and help someone that was once her friend, but Barbara, despite some genuine moments of sympathy, deep down doesn't want it. I think at least. This doesn't mean she isn't a threat physically, after all there are a bunch of supervillains that aren't nemesis material that can slap around the best of them.
    To me, an archenemy is someone who possesses qualities opposite to the hero and contrasts them in personality and power. They represent an insurmountable odds for the hero and fighting them could result in the heroes own corruption, cause them to question their own values or leave them traumatized in some way. An archenemy also represents flaw in the hero's philosophy. Furthermore the emnity between the hero and their archenemy should also be personal and should stem from a very real emotional place.

    For Cap, the Red Skull represents the ever looming threat of Nazism that keeps coming back over and over again. Even better when you take into account that Johann Schmidt's original concept was that he was a complete nobody that Hitler brainwashed into becoming the ultimate symbol of hatred. Thus it's possible for anybody to become as hateful as the Red Skull.

    For me, Cheetah represents the things opposite to Diana; greed, jealousy and hatred. As mentioned in the previous thread, there is also visual contrast and comparison with Greek heroes facing off against monsters (Perseus/Medusa, Theseus/Minotaur). Deep down Diana wants to believe in the best of everyone and that anyone can be redeemed with love and understanding but Barabra is someone so deeply broken, so full hatred and rage that she may never be redeemed at all. Cheetah also exposes the flaw is Diana's upbringing. Diana grew up in an island full of women and all of them were kind, loving and while its easier for her to accept that a man can be evil, its harder for her to accept that a woman could be just as bad. Added to that, I see both Cheetah and Circe as people who started off sympathetically but once they had a taste of power decide to use it lord over everyone else. I like Circe but like I mentioned in another thread, her primary beef is with Hippolyta and Diana is tertiary to that. She is a general existential threat to both Diana and the Amazons but Cheetah is a more personal one.

  5. #4370
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post

    Deva also doesn't have any experience with the world that shapes her view. She was just created by the Titians as a response to the Gods creating Diana. She's evil because the Titans designed her that way. Lex had a horrible childhood and brought himself up, in his mind he "earned" his power. Joker's most famous origin had him have "one really bad day". Circe had The Odyssey to explain her distain for the world and the people in it. Add on the JLD retelling of her origin where she married to the betterment of her people only for her husband to be a monster and her people turning on her for killing him. Compare that to Diana loving the world and wanting to explore it and seeing the best in it.
    I definitely think Circe and Psycho are better claims to the throne than someone like Cheetah.
    The reasons why I don't give it to Circe are that she doesn't really have an iconic look that contrast Wonder Woman. Lex has a bald head aluding to overcoming a sickness. This contrast the Macho man.

    Joker is a clown which contrasts with the dark demon.

    Tge Dodson version of Circe kind of looks like the Queen from Snow White crossed with Maleficent. That kind of works along the idea of Diana being a princess, but for that to be significant, one would have to play up her dark motherly side. If Diana and Circe somehow had a motherly relationship with each other it could maybe work, but that would require a totally different origin. I could still find it interesting since Diana is normally far from her mother, and Circe wanting to steal Diana from Hippolyta as Diana's mother is unprecedented for a villain-hero relationship.

    The second issue with Circe's look is that it just doesn't really stand out as far aa villains go. It's another sexy tempress most of the time, and she kind of resembles Amora the Enchantress, as well as a few ither characters. The JLD look is probably the most unique design she has had, but I don't really see how it thematically opposes Diana.

    And finally, Circe just doesn't have this clear goal for the world does she? Maybe I'm wrong on this one, but it seems to me like across all versions, she usually just wants power and to play with others.

    (I also personally dislike the idea of Diana's archenemy being a character from an ancient greek text, but I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that front.)

    I feel like Deva's psychological warfare does a lot of the same things Circe does to destroy Diana's connection to people. And then Deva has that extra detail of being a child, which hurts Diana to her core.

    Devastation for sure needs a better origin though. I totally grant you that. And I think it could be interesting if we played it the reverse of what I pitched for Circe, where it's about Diana having a twisted daughterly relationship with Devastation.
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-03-2021 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #4371
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post

    For Cap, the Red Skull represents the ever looming threat of Nazism that keeps coming back over and over again. Even better when you take into account that Johann Schmidt's original concept was that he was a complete nobody that Hitler brainwashed into becoming the ultimate symbol of hatred. Thus it's possible for anybody to become as hateful as the Red Skull.
    Wow, that's actually a much better take on Red Skull than the comics I've read, but I suppose that the modern stories have approximated some of those themes to a degree. I still don't consider Red Skull a fully realized arch enemy though. He is more like a Braniac/ General Zod/ Bane/ Ra's Al Ghul. A huge threat that can hit the hero on multiple levels, but doesn't really have the capacity to ever make the hero want to stop being a hero. He's not the best at exploiting the biggest insecurity that the hero has. The closest that it ever happened to Captain America was Nomad in the 70s, and it had nothing to do with Red Skull.

    Deep down Diana wants to believe in the best of everyone and that anyone can be redeemed with love and understanding but Barabra is someone so deeply broken, so full hatred and rage that she may never be redeemed at all. Cheetah also exposes the flaw is Diana's upbringing. Diana grew up in an island full of women and all of them were kind, loving and while its easier for her to accept that a man can be evil, its harder for her to accept that a woman could be just as bad.
    There are two problems with that. I already mentioned the first one, which is that Cheetah would never be able to reach Diana's breaking point, the moment where she starts feeling like she can't ever trust or love anyone. At most, Cheetah can convince Diana to give up on Barbara as a very dear friend, which hurts, but doesn't really break Diana.

    The second problem is that it's only a temporary block. At some point Diana must totally accept that Cheetah can't be saved, or doesn't deserve to be saved. An archenemy can't have that kind of expiration date. Cheetah will always continue to pose a physical threat, but not an emotional threat, just a scar.
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-03-2021 at 09:30 PM.

  7. #4372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I definitely think Circe and Psycho are better claims to the throne than someone like Cheetah.
    The reasons why I don't give it to Circe are that she doesn't really have an iconic look that contrast Wonder Woman. Lex has a bald head aluding to overcoming a sickness. This contrast the Macho man.

    Joker is a clown which contrasts with the dark demon.

    Tge Dodson version of Circe kind of looks like the Queen from Snow White crossed with Maleficent. That kind of works along the idea of Diana being a princess, but for that to be significant, one would have to play up her dark motherly side. If Diana and Circe somehow had a motherly relationship with each other it could maybe work, but that would require a totally different origin. I could still find it interesting since Diana is normally far from her mother, and Circe wanting to steal Diana from Hippolyta as Diana's mother is unprecedented for a villain-hero relationship.

    The second issue with Circe's look is that it just doesn't really stand out as far aa villains go. It's another sexy tempress most of the time, and she kind of resembles Amora the Enchantress, as well as a few ither characters. The JLD look is probably the most unique design she has had, but I don't really see how it thematically opposes Diana.

    And finally, Circe just doesn't have this clear goal for the world does she? Maybe I'm wrong on this one, but it seems to me like across all versions, she usually just wants power and to play with others.

    (I also personally dislike the idea of Diana's archenemy being a character from an ancient greek text, but I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that front.)

    I feel like Deva's psychological warfare does a lot of the same things Circe does to destroy Diana's connection to people. And then Deva has that extra detail of being a child, which hurts Diana to her core.

    Devastation for sure needs a better origin though. I totally grant you that. And I think it could be interesting if we played it the reverse of what I pitched for Circe, where it's about Diana having a twisted daughterly relationship with Devastation.

    I agree with you. In my opinion, Diana doesn't need an archenemy. She's has main adversaries; the Cheetah, Circe, Dr.Psycho, Ares, etc.
    These characters represent everything Wonder Woman is not and stands against.

  8. #4373
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    While OG Etta and the Holliday Girls are the best, I think Julia should teach at Holliday College. it would be a natural way for her and Etta to be brought together for plots. There are also ways to contrast her with Barbara Minerva: in Rebirth, instead of killing her off (ugh) they should have established that Julia was recruited by Steve or Etta to fill the position Barbara filled before she became the Cheetah. Barbara can be more naturally brilliant in her field and have the potential to surpass Julia, but she lacks the wisdom that Julia had with age and is way more cocky/thrill seeking; Julia would be far less likely to seek out a God for power.

    I also think Phil Darnell could be re-worked as a love interest for Julia. He could be her male counterpart that serves a similar function to Steve that she serves for Diana, while Michaelis is Steve's age and close friend. And honestly, Michaelis should be fulfilling the function Etta does in Rebirth while Etta is truer to her roots as a character.

    I had the idea of Steve being a professor of military history at Holliday College.

  9. #4374
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    I agree with you. In my opinion, Diana doesn't need an archenemy. She's has main adversaries; the Cheetah, Circe, Dr.Psycho, Ares, etc.
    These characters represent everything Wonder Woman is not and stands against.
    I mean, I definitely don't think an arch enemy is necessary for me, I'm just explaining why if there had to be one it shouldn't be Cheetah, and why I think Devastation is the best candidate.
    Last edited by Alpha; 08-04-2021 at 05:51 AM.

  10. #4375
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    The idea of Diana fighting a little girl made me uncomfortable, even though I’m sure that was the point.

    Anyways, don’t really want Diana’s arch to be a kid. She can be younger sure, Pricilla was. But not a kid.
    This is probably part of the logic of having Deva fight Cassie.

    Also having Deva in teen form helps with the ick factor. Obnoxious teen is easier to get behind beating up.

  11. #4376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I mean, I definitely don't think an arch enemy is necessary for me, I'm just explaining why if there had to be one it shouldn't be Cheetah, and why I think Devastation is the best candidate.
    I still don't think she needs one. A hefty rotating cast of adversaries is more healthier. I know I made the previous comment before with calling the Cheetah Diana's main adversary, but that because she can work that way when you think about it.

  12. #4377
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    My problem with Circe as Diana's arch is that she's thousands of years old and Diana's presents could easily pass as a blip in her life.

    Obviously the story takes place from Diana's perspective so it's not going to feel like that most of the time, and 3 attempts have been made with Circe to give her a connection with Diana before she was even born through the "prophecy" angle, but the first two fall kind-of flat when they were self fulfilling prophecies.

    But it's like, Circe is this powerful, this wicked, and she hasn't succeeded? Or were other people there to stop her for thousands of years, because that makes Diana and Circe's feud less special. (And why Hippolyta works better if she's the one who banished Circe in the first place.)

    Maybe I just have to go back and re-read her introductory issues in Perez's run, because I remember Circe's motives to target Diana specifically being held together by tape.



    Sharp's Cheetah all-the-way.

    The hair looks nice for action shots though.
    Diana should be the first person to regularly get in Circe's way enough to bother her. People who get small wins on her, like Odysseus, she probably didn't care about.

    Diana needs to be the thorn in her side she cannot remove. Diana need not be the only one to best her, but perhaps the one that always requires Circe's A-game and even then she still loses.

    Someone as long-lived as Circe is probably used to getting her way eventually despite taking a L now and then. I don't think much really got in her way so she just did her own thing and nobody heard much about it because she kept to herself.

    But now she gets thwarted on the regular and that challenge motivates her in ways that make sense only to her.

    Only way I can think of to make sense of it.
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  13. #4378
    Still only crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Diana should be the first person to regularly get in Circe's way enough to bother her. People who get small wins on her, like Odysseus, she probably didn't care about.

    Diana needs to be the thorn in her side she cannot remove. Diana need not be the only one to best her, but perhaps the one that always requires Circe's A-game and even then she still loses.

    Someone as long-lived as Circe is probably used to getting her way eventually despite taking a L now and then. I don't think much really got in her way so she just did her own thing and nobody heard much about it because she kept to herself.

    But now she gets thwarted on the regular and that challenge motivates her in ways that make sense only to her.

    Only way I can think of to make sense of it.
    Come to think about it, during Amazons Attack, didn't Batman learn enough magic to stop Circe, or something crazy like that? Again, whatever it takes for a Wonder Woman rogue to get Batman or one of his allies 'over' or show how awesome they are. I think I am remembering that right.

  14. #4379
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    WW could be at a better place if she wasn't part of a ''trinity'' They have never put any effort into treating her with respect in that circle. She always gets the short end of the stick because the 2 white priviledged boys have to always look as the superior characters. So she will never get anything from being in that ''trinity'' If she didn't have to ''compete'' with those 2, maybe better writing would happen around WW more often.

  15. #4380
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    WW is more than her power levels.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

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