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  1. #4156
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    And yet Marvel was able to do more with the girls in the long run. Black Widow had a great character arc throughout the MCU. Captain Marvel made a billion dollar. Was portrayed as the strongest hero(Something DC and WB will never have the guts to do). And of course in the comics the character also get a big push. She went from a d list to an A list in just 2 years. DC and WB don't put half the effort with the so called number one female hero of all time. So yeah. She would get more support at Marvel, specially with Disney also being involved.
    Captain Marvel was also incredibly bland as a character and a story. A few minutes of feats at the end don't really make up for that, and then she's just a plot device in Endgame that they have to write out for most of the runtime because she's too powerful.

    Wonder Woman doing as well as it did without a successful shared universe to give it a boost and her previous debut being in a critical disaster IS a big deal even if the adaptation doesn't line up with everything everyone wanted (because no adaptation can). There is always room for improvement, but we are in no position to piss on the good stuff we do get. It also just gets so exhausting being too negative 24/7 about things.

  2. #4157
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Considering former Marvel CEO's (Ike Perlmutter) kept coming up with excuses not to make a female lead superhero movie until Wonder Woman was successful, I seriously doubt it.
    One thousands times THIS.

    Jeff Robinov at Warner and Ike over at Marvel were keeping female superheroes down for years.
    May we never forget:

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  3. #4158
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Captain Marvel was also incredibly bland as a character and a story. A few minutes of feats at the end don't really make up for that, and then she's just a plot device in Endgame that they have to write out for most of the runtime because she's too powerful.

    Wonder Woman doing as well as it did without a successful shared universe to give it a boost and her previous debut being in a critical disaster IS a big deal even if the adaptation doesn't line up with everything everyone wanted (because no adaptation can). There is always room for improvement, but we are in no position to piss on the good stuff we do get. It also just gets so exhausting being too negative 24/7 about things.
    Please. Her debut film was good. Nothing groundbreaking. The rest of her appearances in the DCEU have no big character development and present an incompetent and weak woman that is fodder next to any big threat without her gear. CM is growing. They have given her the chance to grow. They had the balls to present a real female powerhouse. WW? She is pathetically weak. Poor girl can't do shit without gear. So much for the face of female power. And there is no such thing as too powerful. If a writer can't create an story where certain characters work well. It is the writing the one to blame.

  4. #4159
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    One thousands times THIS.

    Jeff Robinov at Warner and Ike over at Marvel were keeping female superheroes down for years.
    Once again proving that WB and DC have no faith in WW and never cared to put effort into her movie. They just got lucky. Marvel would do far more for a character like her. Specially with Disney around.

  5. #4160
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    It is about the development of the character and also the power. DCEU WW is pathetically weak. She is a joke that doesn't feel powerful at all. Her sword and shield are her saving grace. Nothing remarkable about her power and skills. And you can try all you want. But at the end of the day. Comics and comic book movies need the wow factor. The epicness of the action. DCEU WW is a glorified cap america with super human stats. If patty jenkins had her way. All WW's movies would be like the boring mess that was WW84. And if znyder had his way. WW would be all about cutting heads and her shield. Both bad takes. Weaklinks that don't make the so called strongest female hero justice. Marvel was able to make an A list out of CM. They actually support her and push the character. In terms of stories and power. WW? Nah she is weaklink warrior woman. Fodder to SM and any powerful being. Can't even match Aquaman on land now. She is in such a good place indeed. Sigh
    How did they push Captain marvel in stories anymore than WW? Just because she's powerful didnt make her anymore exciting in her movie. WW was just fine in her first movie, Patty did a great job. Her 2nd was a bit of a let down but in her solo films there's nothing weak about her. WW did not fight Aquaman in the live action movies so that is neither here or there.

    If you think being shown as the most powerful makes them look any better or gives them a better story, your choice.

  6. #4161
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    How did they push Captain marvel in stories anymore than WW? Just because she's powerful didnt make her anymore exciting in her movie. WW was just fine in her first movie, Patty did a great job. Her 2nd was a bit of a let down but in her solo films there's nothing weak about her. WW did not fight Aquaman in the live action movies so that is neither here or there.

    If you think being shown as the most powerful makes them look any better or gives them a better story, your choice.
    Look at the comics where CM has been becoming a bigger presence.

    The fight with AQ does matter. Because this is a general treatment topic i'm talking about here. Comics and movies nowadays show a WW that is pathetically weak. Maybe you like the approach of a WW that struggles with almost anything and gets one or two shotted by the big threats. I don't like it. CM is bigger than WW in terms of movie success. She has the brighter future out of the 2. Since she has people behind willing to invest and push her lore. WW will never be allowed to be number one at anything in DC. Except for being the number one jobber when Cheetah isn't around. She would be better at Marvel. And there is evidence to prove it. And yes. WW is hella weak in er solo movies. A female cap america with higher stats. That's all she is. Weak as hell.

  7. #4162
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    I don't think Captain Marvel is a good example of how it should be done, but let us not kid ourelves, the first Wonder Woman movie was despite WB and DC a success not because of them and the DCEU is terrible at presenting Wonder Woman as a powerful superhero. But to be fair, the last part has now a relative big connection with Diana basically forgetting her powers of the past in the modern time movies.

  8. #4163
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    How did they push Captain marvel in stories anymore than WW? Just because she's powerful didnt make her anymore exciting in her movie. WW was just fine in her first movie, Patty did a great job. Her 2nd was a bit of a let down but in her solo films there's nothing weak about her. WW did not fight Aquaman in the live action movies so that is neither here or there.

    If you think being shown as the most powerful makes them look any better or gives them a better story, your choice.
    Yeah I would argue that the sequence in the film where she's most powerful (the third act against Ares) was the least interesting part of the movie. Power does not make a story compelling on its own. In both her live action films, the most compelling parts of them generally involve her interacting with people or a scene which could arguably be done by someone at Captain America's strength level.

    The Superman vs. The Justice League fight in Justice League only ever gets referenced for the joy of Clark catching Barry in the Speed Force. Nobody cared about how he outclassed everyone else because they all knew it was dumb. Diana should have put on a better showing and that's why a sum total of nobody likes their fight. Superman v. Barry? Barry was decidedly faster but shit his pants because someone actually could almost catch up, which makes sense for a young Flash who has yet to really push his limits underestimating Superman.

    One makes sense (Barry/Clark) and the other was bullshit and everyone knew it (Clark/Diana).

    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    It is about the development of the character and also the power. DCEU WW is pathetically weak. She is a joke that doesn't feel powerful at all. Her sword and shield are her saving grace. Nothing remarkable about her power and skills. And you can try all you want. But at the end of the day. Comics and comic book movies need the wow factor. The epicness of the action. DCEU WW is a glorified cap america with super human stats. If patty jenkins had her way. All WW's movies would be like the boring mess that was WW84. And if znyder had his way. WW would be all about cutting heads and her shield. Both bad takes. Weaklinks that don't make the so called strongest female hero justice. Marvel was able to make an A list out of CM. They actually support her and push the character. In terms of stories and power. WW? Nah she is weaklink warrior woman. Fodder to SM and any powerful being. Can't even match Aquaman on land now. She is in such a good place indeed. Sigh
    Diana is getting more respect now than she ever did. If that's not to your liking, well I am sorry, but you can't really argue that her trajectory isn't on the upswing and be taken seriously. She's showing up in their cross-promotional stuff (she gets her own sequence in Space Jam, for example) and is getting more of a merch/general media push. Most of her multimedia persona isn't in line with Snyder's take, either. It's closer to the movies Jenkins made where Diana is decidedly more in line with her classic characterization.

    I know you basically want a reel of her beating people up with two WWE announcers commenting on how those people have families and oh the humanity how can the ref allow this to continue, but this is the biggest push the character has had since Lynda Carter wore the costume back in the late 70s. They unambiguously care about her. For a minute they were pushing her harder than Superman and while they haven't stopped pushing her, now they seem a bit more committed to all three of the Trinity. She has never had it this good, and while things could be better, I'm old enough to appreciate that I don't have to accept my sole Wonder Woman in other media being shoehorned into Batman's gaslit love interest on JL with everything else about her being embargoed away.

    Yes, Robinov and Perlmutter didn't think women could headline films. There's a reason they're not making the decisions anymore, if even still with those companies.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-29-2021 at 02:14 AM.
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  9. #4164
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Please. Her debut film was good. Nothing groundbreaking. The rest of her appearances in the DCEU have no big character development and present an incompetent and weak woman that is fodder next to any big threat without her gear. CM is growing. They have given her the chance to grow. They had the balls to present a real female powerhouse. WW? She is pathetically weak. Poor girl can't do shit without gear. So much for the face of female power. And there is no such thing as too powerful. If a writer can't create an story where certain characters work well. It is the writing the one to blame.
    It was groundbreaking for female Directors.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  10. #4165
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    It was groundbreaking for female Directors.
    It was not. It was a good directed film.

  11. #4166
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah I would argue that the sequence in the film where she's most powerful (the third act against Ares) was the least interesting part of the movie. Power does not make a story compelling on its own. In both her live action films, the most compelling parts of them generally involve her interacting with people or a scene which could arguably be done by someone at Captain America's strength level.

    The Superman vs. The Justice League fight in Justice League only ever gets referenced for the joy of Clark catching Barry in the Speed Force. Nobody cared about how he outclassed everyone else because they all knew it was dumb. Diana should have put on a better showing and that's why a sum total of nobody likes their fight. Superman v. Barry? Barry was decidedly faster but shit his pants because someone actually could almost catch up, which makes sense for a young Flash who has yet to really push his limits underestimating Superman.

    One makes sense (Barry/Clark) and the other was bullshit and everyone knew it (Clark/Diana).



    Diana is getting more respect now than she ever did. If that's not to your liking, well I am sorry, but you can't really argue that her trajectory isn't on the upswing and be taken seriously. She's showing up in their cross-promotional stuff (she gets her own sequence in Space Jam, for example) and is getting more of a merch/general media push. Most of her multimedia persona isn't in line with Snyder's take, either. It's closer to the movies Jenkins made where Diana is decidedly more in line with her classic characterization.

    I know you basically want a reel of her beating people up with two WWE announcers commenting on how those people have families and oh the humanity how can the ref allow this to continue, but this is the biggest push the character has had since Lynda Carter wore the costume back in the late 70s. They unambiguously care about her. For a minute they were pushing her harder than Superman and while they haven't stopped pushing her, now they seem a bit more committed to all three of the Trinity. She has never had it this good, and while things could be better, I'm old enough to appreciate that I don't have to accept my sole Wonder Woman in other media being shoehorned into Batman's gaslit love interest on JL with everything else about her being embargoed away.

    Yes, Robinov and Perlmutter didn't think women could headline films. There's a reason they're not making the decisions anymore, if even still with those companies.
    WW is not taken more seriously now. She is a weaklink now. Partially because of the movies. Where she is just a super human character. Nothing special about her power after 4 movie appearances. She is fodder to Superman, stepprenwolf. Aquaman who she couldn't match on land in the latest animated movie. injustice where she loses every 3 seconds. More respected where? She is super weak. She is pathetic. And they have never pushed her as hard as superman. Let alone harder. Still no cartoon. Still no videogame. Still a side character in most jl stories. Still a weaklink that can't do shit without gear. At Marvel she would be treated like a real powerhouse. They have the guts to do it with CM. WW now just keeps being treated as a glorified super human warrior and nothing more.

  12. #4167
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    I have seen countless comments on forums and from the GP. Saying how DCEU WW isn't that strong of a threat without gear. She is rightfuly so called weak based on quantifiable feats by most people that don't get blinded by scaling and statements with no real evidence. DC and WB have and still do for the most part a terrible job with the character. And people here act like the character is in a great position because she had a hit movie 4 years ago despite the company never trusting the character. LOL. They got lucky. But they still did nothing and still do almost nothing with the character.

  13. #4168
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Being more powerful doesn't make a character more popular.

  14. #4169
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Being more powerful doesn't make a character more popular.
    Being weaker doesn't make a character more popular either. But WW is supposed to be super powerful. So i wish she was with a company that wasn't so sexist and was willing to make a female character stand out on the power chart.

  15. #4170
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I have seen countless comments on forums and from the GP. Saying how DCEU WW isn't that strong of a threat without gear. She is rightfuly so called weak based on quantifiable feats by most people that don't get blinded by scaling and statements with no real evidence. DC and WB have and still do for the most part a terrible job with the character. And people here act like the character is in a great position because she had a hit movie 4 years ago despite the company never trusting the character. LOL. They got lucky. But they still did nothing and still do almost nothing with the character.
    I have too and they're largely from the same three posters, one of which is yourself. You seem to be the only one really banging this drum and refusing any argument anyone makes in opposition so it's become evident this is less of a discussion and more a place for you to vent your frustrations using other posters as punching bags for a reality you refuse to accept not matching your perception.

    Anecdotes don't account for a damn thing. Want my source? I use them all the time and it's never once helped my arguments or anyone else's because generally nobody believes an anecdote unless they witnessed it themselves.

    That we even use them at all it's out-of-this-world stupid. I know that because I've actually been to space.

    See what I mean?

    Look. You hate everything about how Diana is portrayed and nothing will sway you. Every success is in spite of their efforts of sabotage.

    The honest fact is that your perception does not reflect the reality of these boards. Every thread, and I mean every one, your opinion is often drowned out by people saying they feel to the contrary. I'm not telling you to leave, but honestly consider the following. It's everyone else on the forum not a fan or are you missing something?

    Seriously. It's a Wonder Woman fan board and nobody else is as unhappy as you save perhaps two other people. I haven't even seen that unpopular an opinion even on the Bat or Super boards.

    She's objectively not as poorly positioned or capitalized on as she was in the 90s, 00s or even early 10s. All those things you're saying she was missing? She didn't have them then either. She had less. L E S S. Reflect on that a moment. They're spending money on Diana like they haven't in decades and money is all that matters to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

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