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  1. #4126
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Zoroastrianism is the direct precursor to Judaism. It even arose in a nearby region. I have only read about it a few times in passing, but as far as I understand it, it does in fact believe in "Good" and "Evil". You are right about that. I just group it up as a Abrahamic religion since so many of the foundations are there, but it does lack the distinct story of Abraham.

    In ancient Egypt, there were the concepts of Ma'at, the principle of justice, order, and cohesion, and Isfet, the principle of chaos, disorder, and decay. The former being the power and principles which society sought to embody where the latter was such that undermined society.
    That's not what Good and Evil means. Justice isn't the same thing as "Good".

    Mesopotamian mythology also has a good vs evil conflict in the form of Marduk vs Tiamat.
    I wasn't familiar with those myths and gods so I went to do some research. I don't see a struggle between good and evil in there.


    There is also research stating that what is good and evil are hardwired into our brains (some are just better at not caring about it than others).
    Lol, no.


    Anyway, my point is that the entire moral system of Greek Mythology negates the idea of Good and Evil, and thus Wonder Woman has never been truthful to the essence of Greek Myth. Nor should it. Heck, I don't wanna see any more stories about Greek Gods and Diana.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-16-2021 at 03:20 AM.

  2. #4127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    That's not what Good and Evil means. Justice isn't the same thing as "Good".
    They are sprung from the same idea and are where the idea of good and evil evolved from. Cultures across the world had their own view on the concept long before Christianity existed.



    Lol, no.
    Just pointing out what the research actually states.

    Anyway, my point is that the entire moral system of Greek Mythology negates the idea of Good and Evil, and thus Wonder Woman has never been truthful to the essence of Greek Myth. Nor should it. Heck, I don't wanna see any more stories about Greek Gods and Diana.
    The Greek myths themselves were always getting told and retold. And there were standards for good and evil even in some stories. They just weren't always consistent or informed by the era.

  3. #4128
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post


    The Greek myths themselves were always getting told and retold. And there were standards for good and evil even in some stories. They just weren't always consistent or informed by the era.
    Give me one example of a story about goodness in greek mythology. Those stories were about power struggles. The heroes weren't people of virtue or enlightenment, they were brave men defying the power of the gods, and for a brief moment suceeding. That's what Greek Myth is about. There's no such thing as "the right thing to do". At most people could be fair and honorable. But that's still different from being "Good"
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-16-2021 at 07:38 AM.

  4. #4129
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They are sprung from the same idea and are where the idea of good and evil evolved from. Cultures across the world had their own view on the concept long before Christianity existed.
    My assertion was that Good is an Abrahamic construction (or as per your claim one that would've started with Zoroastrism). I never said that other cultures didn't have elements that would've inspired the idea of goodness, but "Good" is a construction that comes from these religions in the middle east.

    Plato talked about justice, not goodness. But of course that since culture has been so strongly shaped by these middle eastern religions every text will be incorrectly translated with the word "good".

    I myself find the whole notion of Good and Evil quite ridiculous. Hitler was sadistic and disgusting, destructive and deceitful and selfish. He wasn't "evil".
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-16-2021 at 07:59 AM.

  5. #4130
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    To be fair Wonder Woman has never followed the actual greek mythos and it's moral system. For one thing, Aphrodite and Ares were lovers in actual myth, not enemies. And more importantly, there was no such thing as good and evil. Good and Evil is an Abrahamic construction. In Greek culture it was all about power dynamics and social contracts. The heroes were brave, not virtuous. They defied the gods in order to achieve their desires, and they suceeded for a while, until the day they finally were struck down by the power of a larger authority. Heck, the rite of the sacrifices that the Greeks practiced were all about the social contract with the gods.
    Yes, the Greek Gods are largely there to facilitate Marston's themes and ideology. That kind of goes for every mythological based superhero.

    I think later writers have incorporated more of the actual Greek Gods in the WW mythology. As for Aphrodite, there are actually two Aphrodites. Aphrodite Urania and Aphrodite Pandemos. The former represented a more universal love (and was more in keeping with the themes of WW) and Aphrodite Pandemos who inhabits more physical lust. I'm surprised that this distinction hasn't been made in a WW book before.

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    The first Silver Swan was shunned because she was a plain looking ballerina who had bad acne, so despite her skill the studio would never give her a main role in productions. So elements of loneliness were there for sure.

    Loneliness as isolation is a common theme among villains. No surprise considering how damaging prolonged isolation can be to people.
    I've read that story and would definitely controversial and relevant even today. Though your post made me think they should have gone with her instead of Barbara for WW84 given the plot and themes they were trying to do for that movie.

  6. #4131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    To be fair Wonder Woman has never followed the actual greek mythos and it's moral system. For one thing, Aphrodite and Ares were lovers in actual myth, not enemies. And more importantly, there was no such thing as good and evil. Good and Evil is an Abrahamic construction. In Greek culture it was all about power dynamics and social contracts. The heroes were brave, not virtuous. They defied the gods in order to achieve their desires, and they suceeded for a while, until the day they finally were struck down by the power of a larger authority. Heck, the rite of the sacrifices that the Greeks practiced were all about the social contract with the gods.
    Aphrodite and Ares were confirmed to be lovers in Rucka's second Wonder Woman run. Ares mentioned this and they were shown in a flashback.

  7. #4132
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Oh yeah I forgot about that one time.

  8. #4133
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I've read that story and would definitely controversial and relevant even today. Though your post made me think they should have gone with her instead of Barbara for WW84 given the plot and themes they were trying to do for that movie.
    Feelings of inadequacy and isolation will never be irrelevant (sadly ).

    Though, the similarities between some depictions of Barbara and Silver Swan have not gone unnoticed, since both the comics have pointed this out and Bloodlines even swapped Venessa our for Barbara when they realized WW84 was going to use Cheetah.
    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  9. #4134
    Spectacular Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I've read that story and would definitely controversial and relevant even today. Though your post made me think they should have gone with her instead of Barbara for WW84 given the plot and themes they were trying to do for that movie.
    I have always said it: with a few slight-yet-key changes, WW84 could have been a great Wonder Woman versus Dr. Psycho and Silver Swan story. Obviously, Psycho would have had to be an average-sized man, but when I think about several of the themes explored in the film we got, I wonder why they did not use the doctor and the swan. Heck, even the flying motif would have been a good fit.. And Diana using the golden armor would have made more sense.

  10. #4135
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Feelings of inadequacy and isolation will never be irrelevant (sadly ).

    Though, the similarities between some depictions of Barbara and Silver Swan have not gone unnoticed, since both the comics have pointed this out and Bloodlines even swapped Venessa our for Barbara when they realized WW84 was going to use Cheetah.
    Where did you hear this?

  11. #4136
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    I have always said it: with a few slight-yet-key changes, WW84 could have been a great Wonder Woman versus Dr. Psycho and Silver Swan story. Obviously, Psycho would have had to be an average-sized man, but when I think about several of the themes explored in the film we got, I wonder why they did not use the doctor and the swan. Heck, even the flying motif would have been a good fit.. And Diana using the golden armor would have made more sense.
    Wonder Woman has so many villains, we're supposed to like, for whatever reason, ..and Cheetah is one of those.
    REVOLUTION: THE NEW, REVISED SECRET FILES OF DONNA TROY...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  12. #4137
    Spectacular Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Wonder Woman has so many villains, we're supposed to like, for whatever reason, ..and Cheetah is one of those.
    Had I been in charge of the DCEU decisions regarding a WW trilogy, it would have been: WW1: Ares, WW2: Silver Swan and Psycho; WW3: Circe & Cheetah.

  13. #4138
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    I have always said it: with a few slight-yet-key changes, WW84 could have been a great Wonder Woman versus Dr. Psycho and Silver Swan story. Obviously, Psycho would have had to be an average-sized man, but when I think about several of the themes explored in the film we got, I wonder why they did not use the doctor and the swan. Heck, even the flying motif would have been a good fit.. And Diana using the golden armor would have made more sense.
    Yes for there was a movie that actually needed more cooks in the kitchen.

  14. #4139
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    Had I been in charge of the DCEU decisions regarding a WW trilogy, it would have been: WW1: Ares, WW2: Silver Swan and Psycho; WW3: Circe & Cheetah.
    I think Cheetah was the logical second movie villain but the story they went with her was just not the right one.

  15. #4140
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I think Cheetah was the logical second movie villain but the story they went with her was just not the right one.
    I still can't believe Patty got away with taking Barbara's entire origin of cheetah by only just making a wish instead. that was a major blow to the wonderverse. Silver swan probably would have been worse just a bird lady hybrid knockoff vulture.

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