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  1. #3571
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    I've loved Diana's fashion throughout the films. She's not always glammed to the 9s




    The jumpsuit was to show her fading powers. As they waned so did her "beauty" I put that in quotes because it's Gal Gadot, it takes more than a ponytail and jumpsuit to dim her light, but the attempt was made. The other 2 outfits are still glam. She's belted, cuffed and coifed and that raw silk coat isn't cheap.

  2. #3572
    Incredible Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    I'm sure nothing that she wore was cheap in these photos. Designers make a lot of "cheap" looking things that are expensive as hell lol. It's still toned down from her other attire.

  3. #3573
    Amazing Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    For Wonder Woman 84, it was indeed more in line with classic Wonder Woman stories but the weaknesses do stand out a lot.

    1. Action, choreography and power levels. No matter how much people try to belittle this point, it matters. Even if you depower your hero, at least make her martially skilled like Captain America, Batroc, Winter Soldier or even Daredevil. Give people a reason to rewatch those fights. I honestly didn't rewatch a single fight in WW84 despite rewatching MOS fights like a hundred times and MOS is a movie I actively dislike.

    2. The villain was weak. I don't mean power levels in this case. Maxwell Lord just wasn't a strong villain for this film. No one even rembers him at this moment. They should have focused on Cheetah as the big bad and really dig in into her comic personality and her relationship with Diana. If they wanted another villain, just use Circe and have her wreck havoc. Or someone like Devastation who is pure chaos.

    3. Steve and everything around him. The body snatch plot point was really bad especially as that brought it questions about autonomy and rape for the guy Steve possessed and Diana and what she did. And she didn't even want to let go of Steve so she was basically cosigning to killing this guy till stuff went to shit. Would she even have let go if Max and Cheetah didn't become villains? I just don't like how DCEU Wonder Woman revolves around a man. I even forgot that the dude appeared like himself to everyone else and only looked like Steve through Diana's own imaginations. If they wanted it to be Steve then just do something like a summoning from the afterlife complete with a new body or a standard reincarnation, not possession.

    4. Cheetah. She could have been way better. She could have been iconic. Unfortunately, just another villain with a weak precense.

    All in all, I hope WW3 fixes all this.
    1. If you don't want Diana as a powerhouse then at least make her fight choreography praiseworthy. Something like Captain America Winter Soldier level of martial prowess.

    2. Impactful villain.

    3. No more Steve. You already killed him either way so stick with it.

    4. If Cheetah comes back please dive deep into her lore and do her justice. She wasn't bad in 84, just meh.
    Last edited by Gitagon; 05-03-2021 at 09:51 PM.

  4. #3574
    Incredible Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitagon View Post
    For Wonder Woman 84, it was indeed more in line with classic Wonder Woman stories but the weaknesses do stand out a lot.

    1. Action, choreography and power levels. No matter how much people try to belittle this point, it matters. Even if you depower your hero, at least make her martially skilled like Captain America, Batroc, Winter Soldier or even Daredevil. Give people a reason to rewatch those fights. I honestly didn't rewatch a single fight in WW84 despite rewatching MOS fights like a hundred times and MOS is a movie I actively dislike.

    2. The villain was weak. I don't mean power levels in this case. Maxwell Lord just wasn't a strong villain for this film. No one even rembers him at this moment. They should have focused on Cheetah as the big bad and really dig in into her comic personality and her relationship with Diana. If they wanted another villain, just use Circe and have her wreck havoc. Or someone like Devastation who is pure chaos.

    3. Steve and everything around him. The body snatch plot point was really bad especially as that brought it questions about autonomy and rape for the guy Steve possessed and Diana and what she did. And she didn't even want to let go of Steve so she was basically cosigning to killing this guy till stuff went to shit. Would she even have let go if Max and Cheetah didn't become villains? I just don't like how DCEU Wonder Woman revolves around a man. I even forgot that the dude appeared like himself to everyone else and only looked like Steve through Diana's own imaginations. If they wanted it to be Steve then just do something like a summoning from the afterlife complete with a new body or a standard reincarnation, not possession.

    4. Cheetah. She could have been way better. She could have been iconic. Unfortunately, just another villain with a weak precense.

    All in all, I hope WW3 fixes all this.
    1. If you don't want Diana as a powerhouse then at least make her fight choreography praiseworthy. Something like Captain America Winter Soldier level of martial prowess.

    2. Impactful villain.

    3. No more Steve. You already killed him either way so stick with it.

    4. If Cheetah comes back please dive deep into her lore and do her justice. She wasn't bad in 84, just meh.
    If they can only do WW as a glorified super human warrior. They can keep WW3. A powerhouse should be always part of Diana.

  5. #3575
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    We've already discussed WW84 plenty. Everything that there was to be said already has been.

    I'll just say that I myself love watching the White House sequence. It's Diana at her weakest but also sort of at her best. We see her dedication and focus. And I know you didn't like it for some reason and I don't care, but I also would rather not have to discuss this in a thread that has so many more interesting topics. Heck, what you wrote isn't even a controversial opinion (which is the point of this thread). Most people other than me agree with you.

    (I'm not saying you can't talk about whatever you want, I'm just asking you to put those comments in a thread about WW84 instead)

  6. #3576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Justice Society had the best animated body type in my opinion.




    The best body type she has had in comics was probably Eyes of the Gorgon by Drew Johnson (but Darwyn Cooke was also really good)

    Attachment 109214
    I was positively pleased by the Design of Diana in this movie, one of the few things i liked about the movie.
    Personally im always a fan of a buff, defined Diana...my personal favorite would probably be a more defined Greg Capullo Wonder Woman.
    But as usual, im constantly switching because there are so many artists that draw those characters in their own way that i like.

  7. #3577
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Beauty and glamour were so important to Marston's Wonder Woman. That makes me wonder, how important is it today? It was a major selling point to the Lynda Carter series and all the DCEU movies go out of their way to present a Diana as glamourous as possible. For example, I'm sure most archeology experts wouldn't wear a white designer dress to dust off a statue...

    Attachment 109207

    Attachment 109208

    So is something as superficial as outward appearance integral to the character? I know personally in comics where she looks less than typically attractive like in Wonder Woman Dead Earth it almost seems as if I'm reading about someone else. I'm not talking about cheesecake or oversexualization here, I'm talking about good old fashioned fashion, hair and make-up. Would Wonder Woman's queer and female fanbase except anything else?

    As a statement on 2021 feminine values versus those of 1942, a lot could be done with Diana's "Beauty of Aphrodite" and how she'd get along without it. Marvel is trying something similar with She-Hulk to a less than excited reception. It's failing there, would it work here?
    Given the presence of characters like Etta Candy and Fatsis, Marston may have intended for beauty to have a wider definition than what most people would think. Modern day take would be to define beauty as characters self actualizing themselves in their best physical and mental forms.

    I think Diana should be breathtakingly beautiful. I also think Superman and Batman should be handsome as well. However, they still have physiques that make sense for the work they do and the kind of characters they are. So Diana should be beautiful but still toned and muscular. Though being WW I don't think she would stand people being jealous of her or not being able to see their own beauty because their own definition of it is narrow. Marston's Cheetah seems to be a commentary on this; someone so jealous of Diana that she couldn't see her own strengths.

  8. #3578
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Beauty and glamour were so important to Marston's Wonder Woman. That makes me wonder, how important is it today? It was a major selling point to the Lynda Carter series and all the DCEU movies go out of their way to present a Diana as glamourous as possible. For example, I'm sure most archeology experts wouldn't wear a white designer dress to dust off a statue...

    Attachment 109207

    Attachment 109208

    So is something as superficial as outward appearance integral to the character? I know personally in comics where she looks less than typically attractive like in Wonder Woman Dead Earth it almost seems as if I'm reading about someone else. I'm not talking about cheesecake or oversexualization here, I'm talking about good old fashioned fashion, hair and make-up. Would Wonder Woman's queer and female fanbase except anything else?

    As a statement on 2021 feminine values versus those of 1942, a lot could be done with Diana's "Beauty of Aphrodite" and how she'd get along without it. Marvel is trying something similar with She-Hulk to a less than excited reception. It's failing there, would it work here?
    Well, I feel the problem Marvel is doing with She-Hulk is they also changed her personality a lot to I guess “match” her more muscular appearance, which I think is stupid... why are they feeding this “dumb muscle person” troupe with a character who has already been depicted as more muscular by other artists and they didn’t have to change her personality to do it...

    But anyways, I do think Diana should be physically beautiful, but I also think most comic heroes should look beautiful (men and women alike). Death Earth was different because it was a grungy post-apocalyptic world, having Diana not be covered in dirt would take away from that. Also the artist didn’t draw anyone looking pretty anyway.

    Also, with the advantage of comics and artists you can sort of play with the look of the character and explore different types of facial features and body proportions. (I always think she should look strong and muscular though, like how Alex Ross draws her.)

    But I did love how Marston’s Wonder Woman encourage other people to find beauty in themselves. There can be beauty not just in how a person looks, but how they talk, sound, move, their personality, their intelligence, so I think that is also very important as well.

    In terms of fashion though, it really wouldn’t kill them to put Diana in a t-shirt every once and a while...
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 05-04-2021 at 03:39 AM.

  9. #3579
    Amazing Member AlexLyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Beauty and glamour were so important to Marston's Wonder Woman. That makes me wonder, how important is it today? It was a major selling point to the Lynda Carter series and all the DCEU movies go out of their way to present a Diana as glamourous as possible. For example, I'm sure most archeology experts wouldn't wear a white designer dress to dust off a statue...

    Attachment 109207

    Attachment 109208

    So is something as superficial as outward appearance integral to the character? I know personally in comics where she looks less than typically attractive like in Wonder Woman Dead Earth it almost seems as if I'm reading about someone else. I'm not talking about cheesecake or oversexualization here, I'm talking about good old fashioned fashion, hair and make-up. Would Wonder Woman's queer and female fanbase except anything else?

    As a statement on 2021 feminine values versus those of 1942, a lot could be done with Diana's "Beauty of Aphrodite" and how she'd get along without it. Marvel is trying something similar with She-Hulk to a less than excited reception. It's failing there, would it work here?
    This is SUCH a great question, it really has me pondering and I'm not sure yet what I think, so thanks for giving me something to chew on!

    Its super interesting to me when looked at through the lens of her beauty being a literal gift from the Gods, as some origins have included.

    I'm interested in how Perez had Aphrodite gift Diana with "great beauty and a loving heart" specifically. That latter part of a "loving heart" feels really essential to the character of Diana, and really fitting as the gift that Aphrodite gives rather than beauty alone. I am not sure if that element was also part of Marston's original conception but it certainly feels key to a modern Diana.

    As for Diana being beautiful herself, it's a strange one because that concept is so difficult to pin down. Do we mean aesthetically pleasing? To whom? Do we mean in some way beautiful in her demeanour or behaviour? How?

    Diana being gifted with some kind of super aesthetically pleasing physical form is one of those things that feels not exactly contradictory but certainly a bit of an interesting wrinkle for a heroine who feels like she stands for inner beauty rather than outer beauty. And the idea of her being gifted with physical beauty falls down for me because, again, it just begs the question of "to whom"?

    Obviously we don't have to look at it through the lens of her beauty being a gift from the Gods, but it definitely sparks some interesting thoughts for me in terms of what is and isn't essential to the character and who she is. Maybe beauty and glamour are more important to the reading (or watching) experience than to who Diana is as a character?

  10. #3580
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexLyo View Post
    This is SUCH a great question, it really has me pondering and I'm not sure yet what I think, so thanks for giving me something to chew on!

    Its super interesting to me when looked at through the lens of her beauty being a literal gift from the Gods, as some origins have included.

    I'm interested in how Perez had Aphrodite gift Diana with "great beauty and a loving heart" specifically. That latter part of a "loving heart" feels really essential to the character of Diana, and really fitting as the gift that Aphrodite gives rather than beauty alone. I am not sure if that element was also part of Marston's original conception but it certainly feels key to a modern Diana.

    As for Diana being beautiful herself, it's a strange one because that concept is so difficult to pin down. Do we mean aesthetically pleasing? To whom? Do we mean in some way beautiful in her demeanour or behaviour? How?

    Diana being gifted with some kind of super aesthetically pleasing physical form is one of those things that feels not exactly contradictory but certainly a bit of an interesting wrinkle for a heroine who feels like she stands for inner beauty rather than outer beauty. And the idea of her being gifted with physical beauty falls down for me because, again, it just begs the question of "to whom"?

    Obviously we don't have to look at it through the lens of her beauty being a gift from the Gods, but it definitely sparks some interesting thoughts for me in terms of what is and isn't essential to the character and who she is. Maybe beauty and glamour are more important to the reading (or watching) experience than to who Diana is as a character?
    Looking at it from an in-universe PoV, it seems obvious to me. If it's a gift from Aphrodite, then it follows what Aphrodite thinks is beautiful. Which would logically be the classical Greek goddess look. Which, yes, pretty much the same as the typical "most common super power" look.

    If you wanna look at it from an out-of-universe PoV... well... why is the classical Greek ideal figure a thing? Well Greek people thought it looked good... and who doesn't? One thing I heard from someone years ago is that the Human concept of beauty is in many ways instinctive. You can make a character look grotesquely deformed... simply by making them asymmetrical even if no aspect of their form is actually unusual.

  11. #3581
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    Thinking about the sword and shield...I'm not too torn up about Wonder Woman having a defensive item like a shield at all...the sword is more of a problem to me and I feel that the shield gets unfairly grouped in as a bad "weapon" for Diana to carry.

  12. #3582
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Thinking about the sword and shield...I'm not too torn up about Wonder Woman having a defensive item like a shield at all...the sword is more of a problem to me and I feel that the shield gets unfairly grouped in as a bad "weapon" for Diana to carry.
    I've brought it up before but I at least wish they'd give the sword some form of in-universe importance/relation to Diana or Themyscira if it's gonna be made a default thing in her arsenal. The bracelets, lasso, and even the belt have all had that some point.

    Even the movies made the tiara Antiope's so it has a more personal connection to her beyond just being a symbol of royalty.

  13. #3583
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yes it's true that the shield doesn't necessarily contradict her motto, but since people are discussing how resistant she should be to harm, it seems like the shield would kind of fly in the face of that. I would still accept the shield much more easily than the sword, but it seems like DC prioritizes the sword above the shield.

    And I definitely don't want them to give a meaning to the sword because it just reinforces it's presence. Why encourage investment in that weapon?

  14. #3584
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Thinking about the sword and shield...I'm not too torn up about Wonder Woman having a defensive item like a shield at all...the sword is more of a problem to me and I feel that the shield gets unfairly grouped in as a bad "weapon" for Diana to carry.
    Just carrying a shield is Captain America's thing though.

    Still, shield over sword any day.

  15. #3585
    Incredible Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Just carrying a shield is Captain America's thing though.

    Still, shield over sword any day.
    Just screw them both.

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