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  1. #4306
    Spectacular Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    There is no reason why you can't have a driven character movie and also show the power of the hero.
    I understand both yours and Robanker's points.
    I have a feeling that Jenkins will course-correct for WW3. She is a solid director, imo and her character work and storytelling skills are great, but like many others before her (and certainly after), she needs to collaborate with other filmmakers whose expertise may be in choreographing action setpieces. I would rather have a director like Jenkins, who is more concerned about characterization than someone like Snyder, who is all about spectacularly looking yet emotionally/narratively inert action. But yes, I agree with you: ideally, we can have a balance. We can have block-decimating, pulse-pounding action hand in hand with emotional resonance and solid characterization that, why not, showcases the power of a woman who allegedly has the strength of Gaea, the wisdom of Athena, the speed of Hermes, etc.

  2. #4307
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HestiasHearth View Post
    I understand both yours and Robanker's points.
    I have a feeling that Jenkins will course-correct for WW3. She is a solid director, imo and her character work and storytelling skills are great, but like many others before her (and certainly after), she needs to collaborate with other filmmakers whose expertise may be in choreographing action setpieces. I would rather have a director like Jenkins, who is more concerned about characterization than someone like Snyder, who is all about spectacularly looking yet emotionally/narratively inert action. But yes, I agree with you: ideally, we can have a balance. We can have block-decimating, pulse-pounding action hand in hand with emotional resonance and solid characterization that, why not, showcases the power of a woman who allegedly has the strength of Gaea, the wisdom of Athena, the speed of Hermes, etc.
    snyder did not do a good job at showing Diana as a powerhouse either. So i don't thgink we would miss much if he doesn't work with the character anymore. As for patty jenkins, we will have to wait and see. But i won't hold my breath. She said WW84 would show a WW at the highest of her power. And the highest of her power turned out to be well, not high at all.

  3. #4308
    Spectacular Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    snyder did not do a good job at showing Diana as a powerhouse either. So i don't thgink we would miss much if he doesn't work with the character anymore. As for patty jenkins, we will have to wait and see. But i won't hold my breath. She said WW84 would show a WW at the highest of her power. And the highest of her power turned out to be well, not high at all.
    Just to clarify: I despise Snyder's film work. I also hate what he has shown is his preferred take on Diana (the blood-thirsty barbarian "badass" that massacres human criminals without remorse and keeps decapitated heads as trophies). Ugh. I am so glad that WB finally fired him and killed his DCEU plans. I should have specified that I'd love for Jenkins to collaborate on WW3 with a second-unit director (not Snyder!) that is well versed in action choreography and set pieces, and gives her movie a shot of well-made action adrenaline!
    Last edited by HestiasHearth; 07-31-2021 at 11:20 PM.

  4. #4309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I enjoyed aspects of WW84 too. I think the hyperbole around that movie is a bit excessive, but what can you do. It's not nearly her Superman IV/Batman and Robin.

    DC has conditioned its fans to see Diana as a barbarian hero with a heart of gold. WW84 was a more traditional superhero portrayal, albeit one in which she was getting depowered and the final confrontation wasn't one about physical prowess. It was never going to be a showcase of Diana as a powerhouse. It was decidedly trying to do a more character-driven plot. If that bores you, or if it didn't work for you (and for many it didn't), that's perfectly fair.

    But it really wasn't trying to be about Diana punching things or shrugging off missiles. When we saw the villain was Max Lord and Cheetah was being treated as a mid-boss, I knew that going in. Maybe I'm just too old or something.
    The first movie did not portray Diana as a barbarian either. Very little media in which Wonder Woman has appeared in has depicted her as such. So that excuse doesn't work.

    The backlash to WW1984 has little to do with Diana's power level or her not fighting that many people. It is primarily because the movie has a horrendous message about society and privilege, very troubling views regarding gender and race, and features a moment where Wonder Woman of all people violates the consent of another human being.

    I can understand what it was trying to do and still call it out as a failure. The first movie didn't portray Diana as being all that powerful and the amount of action in both films isn't that different, if at all. Yet, there is a reason it got a far better reception than the sequel. The film wasn't any better than the first nor was it any more true to Wonder Woman because she didn't use a sword.

  5. #4310
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    There is no reason why you can't have a driven character movie and also show the power of the hero. DSpecially when the director said we would see Diana at the highest of her power.

    And shrugging off missiles is something that most current versions of WW in comics and other media are not able to do. So i fail to see how i can view this character as a powerhouse at this point. What God or Goddess performs at such low levels like most current versions of WW do?
    Stop making every conversation about her goddamn power level, dude. I wasn't even talking about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The first movie did not portray Diana as a barbarian either. Very little media in which Wonder Woman has appeared in has depicted her as such. So that excuse doesn't work.

    The backlash to WW1984 has little to do with Diana's power level or her not fighting that many people. It is primarily because the movie has a horrendous message about society and privilege, very troubling views regarding gender and race, and features a moment where Wonder Woman of all people violates the consent of another human being.

    I can understand what it was trying to do and still call it out as a failure. The first movie didn't portray Diana as being all that powerful and the amount of action in both films isn't that different, if at all. Yet, there is a reason it got a far better reception than the sequel. The film wasn't any better than the first nor was it any more true to Wonder Woman because she didn't use a sword.
    At no point did I say WB in their films or cartoons, I said DC specifically. Since 2011 they're preoccupied with her as a warrior first and foremost in the comics.

    Moreover, I saw Diana interrupting her fights to save people and taking every pain to solve her problems nonviolently. She wasn't naive. Her victory came at getting people to change and be better.

    So yes, at least to this reader, her characterization felt truer than the first movie where she was alternated between Diana, the person and Diana, the one who will kill Ares. I have no notion that the second film was better, it wasn't, but people (some more than others) on this board act like it's worse than Quest for Peace. It isn't.
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-01-2021 at 02:26 AM.
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  6. #4311
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    As a Superman fan, that new show is exactly what I want, so personally even with Injustice being a colossal turd at least we've got some good stuff elsewhere.

    Diana, well not so much in multimedia land. Her video game presence coming up is looking pretty grim too. I can only hope that like Superman during the last Fandome, fans start asking where she is in adaptions and DC notices. #Superman was trending HARD after it, so we'll see if the general audience helps her out.
    With Superman and Lois, it definitely proved that a WW series, IF it had to be TheCW....could work to a degree. A show that has as much heart as that one does would be great to have. Lord knows she and hers need/deserve to be fleshed out more.

  7. #4312
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think the violence Diana displays across her two movies and how she approaches them differently works, at least on paper. In the first film she's in a war setting and she's still unlocking her true power throughout, so it makes sense that she'd fight like an Amazon warrior in a battle and kill her opponents. By the second film, when she is more experienced and her powers have been fully unlocked, I think the stance Jenkins and Gadot took that she'd avoid killing as much as possible at this stage of her life is on point and that aspect I can 100% get behind. It really sucks that the timeline of the Snyder Cut backtracks on this and she very casually kills non-powered opponents. That's not her at all, no matter how awful they are.

    Where WW84 fails is in other areas. They nerfed her for most of the runtime and what little action there was in the story became underwhelming as a result. The scene where she gets her powers back and flies for the first time is great, but there isn't enough impressive action after that. The body hijacking of Steve is of course too weird and uncomfortable and I can't believe it made it into the movie. But all of these problems are independent of the film's depiction of Diana being less willing to kill. That aspect can be good while the rest of it can need work.

  8. #4313
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Stop making every conversation about her goddamn power level, dude. I wasn't even talking about that.



    At no point did I say WB in their films or cartoons, I said DC specifically. Since 2011 they're preoccupied with her as a warrior first and foremost in the comics.

    Moreover, I saw Diana interrupting her fights to save people and taking every pain to solve her problems nonviolently. She wasn't naive. Her victory came at getting people to change and be better.

    So yes, at least to this reader, her characterization felt truer than the first movie where she was alternated between Diana, the person and Diana, the one who will kill Ares. I have no notion that the second film was better, it wasn't, but people (some more than others) on this board act like it's worse than Quest for Peace. It isn't.
    You made it aboiut power level in your post. You said the movie was never going to be about WW being a powerhouse. The director said she was workinvg hard to show what Diana will be able to do since she will be at the highest of her power. Patty jenkins just proved she hasn't the ability to handle a powerhouse type of character. That is why she went with the depowered plot.

  9. #4314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    At no point did I say WB in their films or cartoons, I said DC specifically. Since 2011 they're preoccupied with her as a warrior first and foremost in the comics.
    Even on this board, her power level in that film isn't mentioned aside from one or two posters who keep annoyingly bringing it up. Most people on this board don't like Diana as a barbarian either.



    So yes, at least to this reader, her characterization felt truer than the first movie where she was alternated between Diana, the person and Diana, the one who will kill Ares.
    I'd say wanting to kill a guy who was trying to bring about the end of humanity is far truer to Diana's character than being willing to let countless people die so she could keep her boyfriend of a few days.

    I have no notion that the second film was better, it wasn't, but people (some more than others) on this board act like it's worse than Quest for Peace. It isn't.
    Well, I don't know about it being worse than the Quest For Peace but the fact that it's politics are about as messed, arguably more so than a movie that came out in 1987 (and was part of a series with some questionable moments already) doesn't speak well of it.

    WW1984 reminds me an awful lot of Steven Universe. It has ideas and themes that seem progressive on paper but its obsession with being hopeful and optimistic causes it to unintentionally stumble into some very stupid moments that undermine its intentions and makes it no better than the regressive works it is supposed to serve as an antithesis to.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-02-2021 at 04:16 AM.

  10. #4315
    Spectacular Member Gitagon's Avatar
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    The more I think about WW84 and consent, the ickier I feel. Wonder Woman absolutely should never do something like that. Not only is it borderline rape no matter how romantically it is dressed up, she should have never considered ending an Innocent man's life just to bring back Steve.

    This is

  11. #4316
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    I will agree that Diana is compromised with respect to Steve and she makes some weird decisions there.

    Again, WW84 is far from perfect.
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  12. #4317
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I will agree that Diana is compromised with respect to Steve and she makes some weird decisions there.

    Again, WW84 is far from perfect.
    Quoted for truth. In my opinion, WW84 is almost Catwoman bad or Batman Forever bad. I would rather see Thor: Dark World again!

  13. #4318
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Oh god, people here are still having the exact same conversation months later.

  14. #4319
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    Okay, let's move on then.

    I don't think Steve and Etta are Diana's most interesting or necessary supporting cast members.

    I also don't think they're the worst ones either.

  15. #4320
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think Steve can boring really quickly. I don't think Etta had a fair shake after the Golden Age, at least not until Rebirth. But as Diana's primary best friend from Mans World, is she really more engaging than Julia Kapatelis or Helena Sandsmark?

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