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  1. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    No thank you, maybe you're thinking of She-Hulk. Jen is more of a party girl, it took Diana 70 years to get to third base.
    I agree!! That's not WW!! I think it would make her a joke!! Never liked heroes or any characters that jump from bed to bed!!

  2. #857
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    We really need to see a superheriones on holiday arc with a bunch of Diana's friends visiting Themyscira for a vacation. I can only think of maybe an issue or two when we've seen that.

    And of course something needs to go wrong on holiday that puts the heroines into action.

    I'd vote for Vixen, Black Canary, Hawkgirl, Mera, Zatanna, Batwoman, Flamebird, Onyx, Katana, Catwoman, Bumblebee, Element Woman, and Star Sapphire attending and having a good time until [REDACTED] tries to attack Paradise.

  3. #858
    Amazing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Steve Trevor is a boring, useless character who only drags Diana down. He either needs to get a personality or get out of the comic, so that someone could create a more interesting LI for her.

  4. #859
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    You can’t write Steve Trevor our of existence. You can have him appear less but making him gone actually harms Diana. No more characters need to be gone because you think he is boring. He doesn’t need to appear all the time. It’s not that he is boring it’s just the writers can’t figure out what to do. I mean Etta doesn’t have a personality in rebirth rebirth .

    I mean how hard would it be for him to also learn from Diana ? All that magic info? Learning to fight like a Amazon? The first is who is Steve?

    Than again there are people who just hate him. The movie and Legends did do a good job
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  5. #860
    Amazing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    The only way his absence can harm Diana is that it gives DC a temptation to pair her up with Superman or Batman. But aside from that he doesn't bring anything to the comic, he hasn't been relevant since Post-Crisis and hasn't been interesting since forever.

  6. #861
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I very much like Steve in Rebirth and am less interested without him there. Not the point of Lois or Iris, where I'd cease to read the comic without their presence (and did so, when reading back issues of the Flash), but I'd be disappointed.

  7. #862
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    The only way his absence can harm Diana is that it gives DC a temptation to pair her up with Superman or Batman. But aside from that he doesn't bring anything to the comic, he hasn't been relevant since Post-Crisis and hasn't been interesting since forever.
    Post-Crisis making him irrelevant is the main reason he''s so far behind in characterization and depth compared to other supporting characters. He wasn't given the chance, so using post-Crisis as proof he doesn't bring anything to the table doesn't mean much. And since DC wouldn't allow Diana's bisexality to be explored, she got stuck being ship teased with other male heroes or the parade of generic Steve stand ins in her book. So we can't say we ever got an improvement on him in that time.

    Now if they wanted to pair Diana up with a woman now I'd see the benefit of giving Steve a bit of a break, but even then I wouldn't go as far as removing him altogether or his place in her origin or as one of her love interests. If not another woman, just leave him where he is.

  8. #863
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Like I said his absence has made him irreverent. He is a major character for decades. Why have him up? It’s the writers not the characters themselves.

    Much of the issue comes from the fact Steve has been reduced to nothing more than a military man. When in the Golden Age he would do other things like volunteer, help his sister out. We never see anything he does but he work in the military or be with Diana. He has done other. Steve dod have a sister and a niece. He was a activist even before Diana was around.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 08-11-2019 at 07:28 AM.
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  9. #864
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Post-Crisis making him irrelevant is the main reason he''s so far behind in characterization and depth compared to other supporting characters. He wasn't given the chance, so using post-Crisis as proof he doesn't bring anything to the table doesn't mean much. And since DC wouldn't allow Diana's bisexality to be explored, she got stuck being ship teased with other male heroes or the parade of generic Steve stand ins in her book. So we can't say we ever got an improvement on him in that time.

    Now if they wanted to pair Diana up with a woman now I'd see the benefit of giving Steve a bit of a break, but even then I wouldn't go as far as removing him altogether or his place in her origin or as one of her love interests. If not another woman, just leave him where he is.
    I agree with all of this. Steve getting screwed in post-Crisis really hampered his development (not like the other big love interests were all that developed in the 60's and 70's either, it was the modern age where they really, truly began to be their own characters....except Lois, who was always amazing, but you can't compare her to others its unfair). The solution to that is to give him development now, lots of it, and catch him up.

    I'm also not interested in seeing Diana paired up with other heroes....except perhaps Aquaman....but not at the expense of Mera (and the logistics of two solo title holders having a relationship must be a pain in the ass for creators so it's not a great idea anyway, really).

    All that said, I *do* think there's potential in the idea of keeping Steve in the supporting cast, but as an ex-boyfriend. He and Diana dont have to be an item for Steve to be a viable part of the cast and story and I think dealing with an ex (which can be a complex and emotional situation) is fairly untrod ground for Wonder Woman. We've gotten a taste of that sort of thing here and there, including Nemesis and even as recently as the Super-Wonder phase when Steve was appearing in Justice League, but it's never (to my knowledge) really been used in Diana's title to any lasting degree. And nothing prevents them from eventually getting back together either, and as long as it wasn't some trite "will they-won't they" BS it could be good for both of them.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-11-2019 at 07:47 AM.
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  10. #865
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    We really need to see a superheriones on holiday arc with a bunch of Diana's friends visiting Themyscira for a vacation. I can only think of maybe an issue or two when we've seen that.

    And of course something needs to go wrong on holiday that puts the heroines into action.

    I'd vote for Vixen, Black Canary, Hawkgirl, Mera, Zatanna, Batwoman, Flamebird, Onyx, Katana, Catwoman, Bumblebee, Element Woman, and Star Sapphire attending and having a good time until [REDACTED] tries to attack Paradise.
    Kryptonians!... and not Kara or Karen. I would LOVE to see a story where WW hangs out with Car-vex. Car-vex is mainly notable for how she's one of the few Kryptonians who has actually shown Humans what a Kryptonian who wants to kill you can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I'll confess to being tired of watching this character flounder - tired of seeing all of her myth-inspired potential wasted or ignored in sub-par stories. If changing her backstory would give the character new life, popularity and score some successes for the WW comic, ..I'm all for it.
    This can be summed up as: I think the basic direction of the character is wrong.

    And part of why I disagree with your take on it is that part of what you complain about(crying over getting jilted by some stinky, whore-mongering sailor.) is taken directly from the original source. Circe married Odysseus, and when Odysseus cheated on her(with a woman named Penelope) sent his own son(Telegonus) to kill him. Then used her magic to resurrect him, then got killed by Odysseus's son with Penelope(Telemachus) who was in turn slain by Cassiphone, daughter of Circe and (not Odysseus, but otherwise unknown). Seriously, the spurned lover bit is an integral part of the character.

    Your take on her basic motivation as daughter of Helios is missing the mark IMO. Was Helios a hero? Not really, Zeus is a jerk, but so was Helios. Circe's personality could be far more similar to her father's than you give her credit for. You did hit on something very important. She's a TITAN, the gods don't like her. They'd prefer it if she was dead, but as long as she doesn't directly oppose them they're not willing to go to the effort of killing her. And in DC the only gods who DO have a friendly relationship with her are Hecate(in some of the myths Hecate is actually Circe's mother) and Ares(who in the comics fathered her daughter Lyta).

    Then again the myths don't really have a clear line between the various supernatural beings. So whether Circe actually counted as a goddess in the original myths is unclear.
    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    I agree!! That's not WW!! I think it would make her a joke!! Never liked heroes or any characters that jump from bed to bed!!
    This is part of what made the character dynamic between Ben Reilly and Carolyn Trainer interesting.

    As Scarlet Spider, Ben was the virtuous hero, and as Dr. Octopus(she didn't use Lady Octopus until later) Carolyn was seductive and flirtatious. (Yeah, Otto Octavius never did THAT!)

  11. #866
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree with all of this. Steve getting screwed in post-Crisis really hampered his development (not like the other big love interests were all that developed in the 60's and 70's either, it was the modern age where they really, truly began to be their own characters....except Lois, who was always amazing, but you can't compare her to others its unfair). The solution to that is to give him development now, lots of it, and catch him up.

    I'm also not interested in seeing Diana paired up with other heroes....except perhaps Aquaman....but not at the expense of Mera (and the logistics of two solo title holders having a relationship must be a pain in the ass for creators so it's not a great idea anyway, really).

    All that said, I *do* think there's potential in the idea of keeping Steve in the supporting cast, but as an ex-boyfriend. He and Diana dont have to be an item for Steve to be a viable part of the cast and story and I think dealing with an ex (which can be a complex and emotional situation) is fairly untrod ground for Wonder Woman. We've gotten a taste of that sort of thing here and there, including Nemesis and even as recently as the Super-Wonder phase when Steve was appearing in Justice League, but it's never (to my knowledge) really been used in Diana's title to any lasting degree. And nothing prevents them from eventually getting back together either, and as long as it wasn't some trite "will they-won't they" BS it could be good for both of them.
    Yeah, Silver Age love interests (particularly at DC) were generally not that well developed. Hell, even the heroes' weren't too distinct from each other until the late silver/Bronze age age. Carol, Iris and Jean Loring aren't exactly super complex back then either. Of the major heroes' love interests, Lois reigns supreme. Even at her worst/craziest, she was never boring. There's also Selina if she counts, but she wasn't as much of a straight up romantic option back then. I feel that Steve was quick to be discarded because a straight white male and there are an abundance of those in comics, but dismissing him as being inherently without potential because of that is unfair. There's also an undercurrent of "a strong woman shouldn't love a man and be independent" or "Diana needs a strong man as powerful or more powerful than her to be worthy of her, not a normal man who isn't worthy of her" thought processes in the decision to get rid of Steve, which I don't like at all.

    The main dated aspects of their romance (her falling in love with him at first sight and being the motivation for her leaving the island, and the tedious WW/Steve/Diana Prince triangle) are easily discarded without tossing out the whole thing, as the movie and Year One effortlessly show. We're still making up for a mistake made with Steve in the 80s to this day,

  12. #867
    Incredible Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    Well, I don’t know how you’d go about making Steve more interesting. I think their dynamic worked rather well in the movie. Steve there to me, and I could be wrong, is utilitarian in his philosophy, while Diana was more altruistic if that makes sense. While they shared a similar goal, they both had different takes on how to get there. Steve wasn’t above leaving various groups of war-torn people where they were to suffer, while Diana showed that no person, no matter how seemingly insignificant, was beyond help.

    So, if you wanted to make him more interesting, I would further push how their personal philosophies compare and contrast. That’s just my take tho.

  13. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They failed at it because no one with common sense bought her as a villain the way they wrote it.
    Nobody bought her as the villain probably because of how long she's been a hero.

  14. #869
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon Swordsman View Post
    Well, I don’t know how you’d go about making Steve more interesting. I think their dynamic worked rather well in the movie. Steve there to me, and I could be wrong, is utilitarian in his philosophy, while Diana was more altruistic if that makes sense. While they shared a similar goal, they both had different takes on how to get there. Steve wasn’t above leaving various groups of war-torn people where they were to suffer, while Diana showed that no person, no matter how seemingly insignificant, was beyond help.

    So, if you wanted to make him more interesting, I would further push how their personal philosophies compare and contrast. That’s just my take tho.
    I'd have said that in the movie Diana believed people were controlled by Ares, and once they weren't (after she killed who she thought was Ares), and still did what they did, she wasn't sure they were worth saving at all. She was an idealist, and when people didn't live up to her ideals, she was lost and adrift and confused. Though only briefly, I admit. Steve believed that even if people weren't that good, they still deserved to be saved. He knows that people do these horrible things, and don't need a god to make them do it. But people on the whole, are still worth saving. That aspect, though, is heavily dependent on movie Diana's naivete. I'd prefer Diana not be that naive even when fresh off the island, and it couldn't last, even if she were.

    Excerpt:
    ____________________
    Steve finally says what he hasn’t had the heart to say all along.
    STEVE
    Because maybe people aren’t...just good, Diana. Ares or no Ares. Maybe it’s... just them.

    She looks out at them. The truth slowly sinking in as she tries to understand -

    DIANA
    No... It can’t be... Everything I saw? They were killing each other. Killing people they can’t even see... Killing children. Like it was nothing... It had to be him!! It can’t be them!

    STEVE
    Diana, sometimes people are complicated --

    Diana’s disbelief begins to turn to anger.

    DIANA
    My mother was right. She said ‘the world of men don’t deserve you.’
    (beat)
    That’s why she left. They don’t deserve our help.

    Steve knows they’re out of time.

    STEVE
    It’s not about whether they deserve it or not. It’s about what you believe. You think I don’t get it? All I’ve seen out there? I wish I could tell you that there was one ‘bad guy’ to blame. Maybe we’re all to blame. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to do better.(beat)
    And if you believe this war should stop, Diana, if you want to stop it, then help me stop it. Now.
    ____________________


    Steve was a hero, through and through, IMO. No, he didn't do everything the same way Diana did. I don't think he was less altruistic, really. He believed that the best way to help those people in war-torn areas and suffering immensely was to end the war as soon possible. It's not a difference in motivation, it's a difference in method.

    Steve was a man very aware of what he could not do (fight Ares), and so he took the plane so that Diana could stay and do what only she could do. He did his bit to save people within 50 square miles of where that gas would be, and she did her bit to save world. I do like that aspect. He does what he can, and it doesn't bother him that he can do less than her. But that also doesn't mean he doesn't do what he can. And, if she wasn't there, if no powered hero was, then he would do what he could to save the world, absolutely. But when they are, he is completely comfortable taking the "lesser" role or fighting the "lesser" fight so people more qualified can face the bigger threat.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-11-2019 at 06:30 PM.

  15. #870
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I think giving Steve a rival for Diana's affection, or giving Diana an alternative love interest, who isn't in competition with Steve, would force writers to distinguish the two. That might give Steve a personality.
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