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  1. #1051
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    To continue with my controversial opinions.

    Atlantiades is the most interesting addition to Wonder Woman's cast since Rucka came up with Veronica Cale.

    Wilson's depiction of Aphrodite is the most interesting way that Aphrodite has been handled in Wonder Woman since the start. What Rucka could talk about but never get onto the pages about the Amazons and their patrons, Wilson grokked and showed it throughout her run with both Ares, Aphrodite, and Atlantiades.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #1052
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I often wondered is what the other pagan worshipping heroes. How does the Greek gods affect them or at least people like? Shazaam

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    One thing I often wondered is what the other pagan worshipping heroes. How does the Greek gods affect them or at least people like? Shazaam
    Shazam doesn't worship pagan gods.

  4. #1054
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    True but he gets his powers from one of them. So I'm wondering how Zeus’s death affect him

  5. #1055
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    So here's a controversial opinion.

    I'm perfectly fine with the idea that Diana isn't nearly as strong as Superman....**As long as she's still just as capable.**

    I've read the arguments for making her Clark's physical equal and I get what Marston was going for, and they're good, solid reasons. But I'm not 100% cool with basing Diana's power off another (male) character. DC is never going to really make any hero stronger than Superman, just as they're never really going to let anyone be faster than the Flash. And in my opinion they shouldn't; DC is a pantheon where each hero is the king/queen of their own domain and specialty. But this means when Superman gets nerfed (like in post-Crisis) so does Diana. When he gets buffed, so does she. She doesn't stand on her own in this regard, she's a mirror of someone else and that someone else gets to set the rules and limits. I'm not cool with that, Diana's no legacy character!

    I'd be perfectly fine saying that Diana is *only* strong enough to throw tanks across a battlefield (which is still stupid strong) and durable enough to shrug off any man-made, hand-held weapon (she deflects bullets because she's not letting some mook actually shoot her! Even if it wont hurt its the principal of the thing!). I'd be fine with her running at the speed of sound, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, and able to "ride air currents" at 100-200 mph.

    I'd be fine with all of that.....but only as long as her reaction time and reflexes still allow her to catch bullets and deflect energy blasts (which, really, means she can still react to speedsters like Barry). If her training and combat skill allowed her to make damaging precision strikes against physically superior foes her strength level wouldn't normally allow her to hurt, I'd be okay with that since it's showing off her talent and ability and not just her muscles. And if her gear helps bring her up to that "top class" level (the armor increases her durability, her blade can cut atoms, her lasso is unbreakable, the invisible jet gets her around quickly, etc) then I don't see her being "less powerful" than Superman (or Shazam or whoever), but merely equally powerful in a different way.

    The way I see it, Diana currently has a distinct advantage over people like Superman in a fight. She's got the same raw power and a ton more skill. In a straight up brawl I think she'd beat Clark at least half the time (and Im being nice to Clark here). I don't want that to change, but I'd be fine if Diana's wins came from talent and ability (and power too, yes, she's not Captain America!) instead of *just* raw power.

    I'd also like to add a few "mythical/god-like" abilities to her arsenal, like being able to hear prayers or travel between earth and mythological dimensions like Olympus, the Island, etc., but this post is long enough already. But getting her a little bit away from the flying brick archetype and building a slightly more unique powerset around her.....wouldn't be the worst thing to happen, in my mind....as long as she remains just as capable and competent as she currently is.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-21-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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  6. #1056
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So here's a controversial opinion.

    I'm perfectly fine with the idea that Diana isn't nearly as strong as Superman....**As long as she's still just as capable.**

    I've read the arguments for making her Clark's physical equal and I get what Marston was going for, and they're good, solid reasons. But I'm not 100% cool with basing Diana's power off another (male) character. DC is never going to really make any hero stronger than Superman, just as they're never really going to let anyone be faster than the Flash. And in my opinion they shouldn't; DC is a pantheon where each hero is the king/queen of their own domain and specialty. But this means when Superman gets nerfed (like in post-Crisis) so does Diana. When he gets buffed, so does she. She doesn't stand on her own in this regard, she's a mirror of someone else and that someone else gets to set the rules and limits. I'm not cool with that, Diana's no legacy character!

    I'd be perfectly fine saying that Diana is *only* strong enough to throw tanks across a battlefield (which is still stupid strong) and durable enough to shrug off any man-made, hand-held weapon (she deflects bullets because she's not letting some mook actually shoot her! Even if it wont hurt its the principal of the thing!). I'd be fine with her running at the speed of sound, leaping tall buildings in a single bound, and able to "ride air currents" at 100-200 mph.

    I'd be fine with all of that.....but only as long as her reaction time and reflexes still allow her to catch bullets and deflect energy blasts (which, really, means she can still react to speedsters like Barry). If her training and combat skill allowed her to make damaging precision strikes against physically superior foes her strength level wouldn't normally allow her to hurt, I'd be okay with that since it's showing off her talent and ability and not just her muscles. And if her gear helps bring her up to that "top class" level (the armor increases her durability, her blade can cut atoms, her lasso is unbreakable, the invisible jet gets her around quickly, etc) then I don't see her being "less powerful" than Superman (or Shazam or whoever), but merely equally powerful in a different way.

    The way I see it, Diana currently has a distinct advantage over people like Superman in a fight. She's got the same raw power and a ton more skill. In a straight up brawl I think she'd beat Clark at least half the time (and Im being nice to Clark here). I don't want that to change, but I'd be fine if Diana's wins came from talent and ability (and power too, yes, she's not Captain America!) instead of *just* raw power.

    I'd also like to add a few "mythical/god-like" abilities to her arsenal, like being able to hear prayers or travel between earth and mythological dimensions like Olympus, the Island, etc., but this post is long enough already. But getting her a little bit away from the flying brick archetype and building a slightly more unique powerset around her.....wouldn't be the worst thing to happen, in my mind....as long as she remains just as capable and competent as she currently is.
    Agreed.

    Strength is the one niche Clark has left to be the champion of, plus he has far more regular weaknesses then she does. I think him being #1 in raw strength is more than fair, as long as she isn't too far behind him and has areas of expertise that he doesn't (different tools, superior combat training, etc.). The lasso should be able to stop him and even he shouldn't be capable of breaking it. They are friends and allies, so they shouldn't be fighting anyway, and his narrative never intersects with hers so she's still the #1 champion of her sphere. That only becomes a problem when they make the mistake of pairing them romantically, so as long as that doesn't happen, Supes being her slightly more powerful friend who isn't a regular feature in her stories shouldn't be an issue.

    Hell, writers can nerf Diana and write her as less competent than she should be within her own book and it has nothing to do with Superman, who frequently has his own problems. And I don't think whatever weird hangup DC has with not letting the Amazons keep their technology has to do with him either. I really want Amazonian technology to be up there with Kryptonian, Martian and Atlantean tech and be applied to interesting uses throughout the wider DC universe. We need some of the DCU's most brilliant scientists to be from Paradise Island. Even if science isn't Diana's niche the way it is for some of her sisters, she should be a jack of trades like Clark is with science. She originally invented the purple ray and the invisible plane. I think that undermines Marston's concept of the island if only one Amazon is allowed to be special and do everything and Diana's obviously getting the lion's share of the narrative, but she should (for example) be Althea's prized pupil as a healer and user of the ray and be an expert flyer of the Swan Planes. She should pull off comparable feats as Superman, either through raw strength or using skills and tools to make up any difference. She shouldn't lose flight either, but I'd prefer she gets it later so she can get some use out of a highly advanced Amazonian jet first.

    Basically, I wish DC would get over their aversion to letting Diana and Clark keep all their stuff and putting too many limits on their abilities. Make them smarter than damn Batman in some areas, because they totally are.

  7. #1057
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Here is the thing how many combat training does Diana know? If she had to combat fight Bruce where is she?

  8. #1058
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Here is the thing how many combat training does Diana know? If she had to combat fight Bruce where is she?
    Do you mean how does she compare to Bruce in combat skills?
    Even without powers, she should absolutely school him. With powers, he (or even Cassandra Cain) is not even a blip on her radar.

  9. #1059
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Just on combat skills alone. Because it seems like DC just wants Bruce to win. I mean I get prep time but what about Diana? She is prepared for anything.

  10. #1060
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Just on combat skills alone. Because it seems like DC just wants Bruce to win. I mean I get prep time but what about Diana? She is prepared for anything.
    Well, what DC wants isn't necessarily what *should* be. In my mind, Diana's one of the best fighters on earth, and without doubt the #1 most skilled fighter out of the "super powers" crowd.

    She should be able to defeat Bruce, just based on combat skill. But I don't really think Bruce ranks that high as a martial artist, so I'll do better; Diana should be able to out-fight Nightwing (who, let's not forget, is one of the most experienced heroes on earth, preceding even Hal and Barry, and is still in his prime), Ra's, and be able to, at the absolute least, stale-mate Cass and Shiva (who I consider the best fighters in the DCU, except for Richard Dragon who hasn't been seen in forever).
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  11. #1061
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The only thing is her weakness they still have are bullets or her being stabbed. So the thing is how to balance this out? Of it's a regular knife it breaks? I don't know to give it a unique touch it does go through her but and bullets would pop out due to healing

  12. #1062
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    I kind of want to see more Diana/Clark and Wonder Woman/Superman interactions where they don't know each other's secret identities. I think those make for interesting stories when we can see how they are together when they do know vs when they don't know.

  13. #1063
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    edited post. never mind.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-22-2019 at 01:47 AM.

  14. #1064
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Pretty much also agree with Ascended on Diana's powerset. Even without powers she should be in the top-five DC fighters, just based on training and experience.

    But fighting aside, I'd really like for writers to explore the rest of Diana's "canonical" power set from Pérez (even if Rucka inexplicably left out Hestia in his version of it): strength of earth, beauty and loving heart, wisdom, eye of the hunter and unity with beasts, sisterhood with fire and opening men's hearts, and speed and flight.

    The only writer who I can think of that regularly pick up Diana's powers with animals is Amanda Conner, and that's a pity. With her gifts from Demeter and Artemis, she really should have a connection with both the Green and the Red.

    (Also. I read up a bit of Hestia anew. Forget Diana bringing game as gifts to parties. She brings fresh bread that she has baked herself.)
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Pretty much also agree with Ascended on Diana's powerset. Even without powers she should be in the top-five DC fighters, just based on training and experience.

    But fighting aside, I'd really like for writers to explore the rest of Diana's "canonical" power set from Pérez (even if Rucka inexplicably left out Hestia in his version of it): strength of earth, beauty and loving heart, wisdom, eye of the hunter and unity with beasts, sisterhood with fire and opening men's hearts, and speed and flight.

    The only writer who I can think of that regularly pick up Diana's powers with animals is Amanda Conner, and that's a pity. With her gifts from Demeter and Artemis, she really should have a connection with both the Green and the Red.

    (Also. I read up a bit of Hestia anew. Forget Diana bringing game as gifts to parties. She brings fresh bread that she has baked herself.)
    I'm kind of iffy on "beauty and loving heart" and "opening men's hearts" as powers.

    Beauty as a power doesn't seem very impressive in a superhero universe where even civilian women can be depicted as unrealistically beautiful. A loving heart sounds like if Diana lost her powers she'd be a hateful person. And opening men's hearts raises questions about consent and free will that I don't think the comics were intending to answer.

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