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  1. #2911
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Unlike the problems caused with Donna and aging up Steve, Wonder Woman lost nothing of value not being a founding member of the Justice League in the post-Crisis continuity and aside from being a cool poster image, her being on the team has largely contributed nothing of substance to her as a character or her larger world.
    Sort of related to this, I think post-Crisis continuity stories of Diana's time on the JL have done more harm for her than the pre-COIE days and have sort of cast a retroactive pall on the Silver/Bronze age time on the team that otherwise isn't as bad as people think.

    Considering the time period they were written, there is of course some cringy stuff once and a while, but the Silver Age omnibuses present her as being an equal to the men. And she was certainly more competent than the Marvel women were at the time. I think the worst event would be the fallout from Secret Agent Diana Prince, but that crap came from her book, not the teams.

    I wouldn't say her losing the founding status hurts her IP at all, but it's also like...why do it if you don't have to? What does it accomplish besides continuity headaches when most of the stories were harmless?

  2. #2912
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Sort of related to this, I think post-Crisis continuity stories of Diana's time on the JL have done more harm for her than the pre-COIE days and have sort of cast a retroactive pall on the Silver/Bronze age time on the team that otherwise isn't as bad as people think.

    Considering the time period they were written, there is of course some cringy stuff once and a while, but the Silver Age omnibuses present her as being an equal to the men. And she was certainly more competent than the Marvel women were at the time. I think the worst event would be the fallout from Secret Agent Diana Prince, but that crap came from her book, not the teams.

    I wouldn't say her losing the founding status hurts her IP at all, but it's also like...why do it if you don't have to? What does it accomplish besides continuity headaches when most of the stories were harmless?
    Pre-Crisis JL is mostly a blank slate for me so I'll admit I can't speak on anything on how she was treated there but Post-Crisis onwards is more of what I was thinking of and where I think the stereotype of Diana the Haughty Warrior is more evident than for the most part anything from her own books.

    I also tend to think this applies to the other big name members of a usual League roster and that they usually get written at either their worst or their most least interesting auto-pilot version while on JL, but I'd argue it hurts Diana worse as she's usually the lowest selling individual member of the team so there's more eyes on her there than whatever the writer is doing on her own book.

  3. #2913
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Pre-Crisis JL is mostly a blank slate for me so I'll admit I can't speak on anything on how she was treated there but Post-Crisis onwards is more of what I was thinking of and where I think the stereotype of Diana the Haughty Warrior is more evident than for the most part anything from her own books.

    I also tend to think this applies to the other big name members of a usual League roster and that they usually get written at either their worst or their most least interesting auto-pilot version while on JL, but I'd argue it hurts Diana worse as she's usually the lowest selling individual member of the team so it arguably as a greater impact on how she's perceived.
    I don't disagree. I think post-Crisis JL doesn't offer that much outside of a few runs, and really doesn't do any of the characters favors. Like you say, they go into bare bones autopilot there. Even in the Satellite era, when comics were supposedly less sophisticated, there was more of a sense of camaraderie between the members than we frequently get now. Which is I think why we have the "JL members are co-workers, Other Team X is family" mentality that is common now when it might not have been then. I think losing all that in service of COIE is a shame, and it's actually the let downs of modern JL comics that are creating the perception of "it was never good for her in the first place."

    The only bronze age issue that springs to mind as being kind of iffy is one of the Englehart issues where Wonder Woman is brainwashed and fights Superman, and we have a rather condescending final panel of Diana crying in Superman's arms while he comforts a "liberated lady" (). But pretty much everyone in that run took turns at being competent and flawed, she had other awesome moments in that run, and she also puts up a lot of mental resistance against the brainwashing to the point where Superman is concerned she will die from the strain. Which, sadly, is more resistance than we frequently get out of Superman's brainwashings.

  4. #2914
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Even in the Satellite era, when comics were supposedly less sophisticated, there was more of a sense of camaraderie between the members than we frequently get now.
    I wouldn't have called that era "less sophisticated" - I always thought of the sophistication shift as between silver and bronze age rather than bronze and modern. All a matter of opinion, I guess. I really enjoyed the satellite era, particularly earlier on. No Wonder Woman, though (also no Martian Manhunter, which is why he's not the heart of the Justice League to me). Not to say it was without flaws.

  5. #2915
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't disagree. I think post-Crisis JL doesn't offer that much outside of a few runs, and really doesn't do any of the characters favors. Like you say, they go into bare bones autopilot there. Even in the Satellite era, when comics were supposedly less sophisticated, there was more of a sense of camaraderie between the members than we frequently get now. Which is I think why we have the "JL members are co-workers, Other Team X is family" mentality that is common now when it might not have been then. I think losing all that in service of COIE is a shame, and it's actually the let downs of modern JL comics that are creating the perception of "it was never good for her in the first place."

    The only bronze age issue that springs to mind as being kind of iffy is one of the Englehart issues where Wonder Woman is brainwashed and fights Superman, and we have a rather condescending final panel of Diana crying in Superman's arms while he comforts a "liberated lady" (). But pretty much everyone in that run took turns at being competent and flawed, she had other awesome moments in that run, and she also puts up a lot of mental resistance against the brainwashing to the point where Superman is concerned she will die from the strain. Which, sadly, is more resistance than we frequently get out of Superman's brainwashings.
    Yeah, I think the only "big name" character who arguably benefits from being on the League is Martian Manhunter. And that's mainly because he's never really been a solo success, which is why I think calling him a "big name" would be a stretch for some.

  6. #2916
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, I think the only "big name" character who arguably benefits from being on the League is Martian Manhunter. And that's mainly because he's never really been a solo success, which is why I think calling him a "big name" would be a stretch for some.
    It may be blasphemy (and off topic for the thread) but in the satellite-era stuff I read (which is the bulk of my JL reading), I really preferred stories where Batman and Superman didn't have a big presence because it meant the others got to be stars. Too often with them around, others are more support staff while one of them saved the day. The League shouldn't be hierarchical, IMO. In a meta sense, some heroes are indisputably more important than others, but the characters should not, in-universe, act like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are senior members or get to make the decisions or what not.

  7. #2917
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It may be blasphemy (and off topic for the thread) but in the satellite-era stuff I read (which is the bulk of my JL reading), I really preferred stories where Batman and Superman didn't have a big presence because it meant the others got to be stars. Too often with them around, others are more support staff while one of them saved the day. The League shouldn't be hierarchical, IMO. In a meta sense, some heroes are indisputably more important than others, but the characters should not, in-universe, act like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are senior members or get to make the decisions or what not.
    I'm halfway in agreement with you, and halfway not.

    I agree, completely, that the Trinity (really just Superman and Batman....really, mostly, just Batman) tend to be the ones calling the shots, saving the day and making the big calls, and it does a disservice to everyone else in a team book where, supposedly, we're reading about the absolute best and most competent heroes earth has to offer and everyone's on a fairly even playing field.

    However, I don't think there's really any avoiding the hierarchy, even in-universe. Yes, it shouldn't be as stark and cemented as it is in the real world and the big hero moments need to be shared with the whole roster far, far more often than what we get. But there's no denying, in-universe, that the Trinity are a cut above. They *do* stand a little higher than Barry, Hal, Arthur, or whoever.
    Last edited by Ascended; 10-25-2020 at 06:22 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #2918
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    However, I don't think there's really any avoiding the hierarchy, even in-universe. Yes, it shouldn't be as stark and cemented as it is in the real world and the big hero moments need to be shared with the whole roster far, far more often than what we get. But there's no denying, in-universe, that the Trinity are a cut above. They *do* stand a little higher than Barry, Hal, Arthur, or whoever.
    I think they need to all regard each other as equals. That's just how I feel about it. Is that always what we see in-universe - no. But since we too often see that the JLA would be better off if made up of Batman and a bunch of obedient Amazos, that doesn't mean much to me.

  9. #2919
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It may be blasphemy (and off topic for the thread) but in the satellite-era stuff I read (which is the bulk of my JL reading), I really preferred stories where Batman and Superman didn't have a big presence because it meant the others got to be stars. Too often with them around, others are more support staff while one of them saved the day. The League shouldn't be hierarchical, IMO. In a meta sense, some heroes are indisputably more important than others, but the characters should not, in-universe, act like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are senior members or get to make the decisions or what not.
    I wouldn't say that's particularly unfair. JL or similar type event universe stories like Injustice or Kingdome Come have a tendency to become "Batman/Superman and their Amazing Friends" show.

    To bring it back to Diana, guess that it doesn't really feel like she has much of a connection to the other League members outside of Superman and Batman is why I wonder how much it's really done for her. And even then her relationship with Batman in most writer's hands, even if it isn't writers trying to do a shipping aspect. is usually just a one-sided view of how awesome/noble he is.

  10. #2920
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It may be blasphemy (and off topic for the thread) but in the satellite-era stuff I read (which is the bulk of my JL reading), I really preferred stories where Batman and Superman didn't have a big presence because it meant the others got to be stars. Too often with them around, others are more support staff while one of them saved the day. The League shouldn't be hierarchical, IMO. In a meta sense, some heroes are indisputably more important than others, but the characters should not, in-universe, act like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are senior members or get to make the decisions or what not.
    I’d still like to see a JL where the Trinity aren’t members (although I’m sure that will never happen because sales would absolutely crater). You could keep Diana on there I suppose since Batman and Superman have their own team up book where people who want to see them kick ass could get their fix.

  11. #2921
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I wouldn't have called that era "less sophisticated" - I always thought of the sophistication shift as between silver and bronze age rather than bronze and modern. All a matter of opinion, I guess. I really enjoyed the satellite era, particularly earlier on. No Wonder Woman, though (also no Martian Manhunter, which is why he's not the heart of the Justice League to me). Not to say it was without flaws.
    No i wouldnt call it unsophisticated either, just that that seems to be the general perception. That post Crisis was more complex. Which outside of the proto Vertigo stuff, i wouldnt really agree with

  12. #2922
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Unlike the problems caused with Donna and aging up Steve, Wonder Woman lost nothing of value not being a founding member of the Justice League in the post-Crisis continuity and aside from being a cool poster image, her being on the team has largely contributed nothing of substance to her as a character or her larger world.

    I mean in a way we have. Diana did have fun doing other things but now Dc doesnít show us what she does for fun. Dc taken away a few things that added to her character. For example, Holliday College was important. While I get why we donít need Diana prince. I like the idea of Diana not always having to be in the public eye. Another issue it seems like she makes money by the military. While thatís okay. I rather liked her relationship with Myndi. That way no foreign powers are in play. Having an iconic home is important. We do age paradise island. Yes but we also need to see her fit in the outside world. So both are important.

    The same reason Steve doesnít truly work. They took away a lot of things from him. To his family life and what he does outside of military.

  13. #2923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Unlike the problems caused with Donna and aging up Steve, Wonder Woman lost nothing of value not being a founding member of the Justice League in the post-Crisis continuity and aside from being a cool poster image, her being on the team has largely contributed nothing of substance to her as a character or her larger world.
    These days, I'd say the JL ip needs Wonder Woman more than she needs it.

  14. #2924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    These days, I'd say the JL ip needs Wonder Woman more than she needs it.
    I think this was true earlier as well as being applicable to the other names as well. It seems the League is largely expected to be the all star lineup and when it is not it doesn't do as well.

  15. #2925
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I agree. I just feel like DC keeps forgetting what Diana means to Dc universe. Much like how they forget Donna and Cassie’s impact on Diana myths

    Also disregarding the sharp weapon weakness. Does Diana has any other weakness because if there was a way to stop her the only way would be getting a magic artifact or person. Because Diana’s only other weakness would be her lasso.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 10-28-2020 at 12:42 PM.

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