Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Manakel]

I rather like it if he was an adventure type guy. He knows how to use magical items. He might not be able to beat Cheetah but he can smartly use magical weapons to keep her busy. Steve can work has a damsel but he needs to be balanced out.

Then you should be please to know that, even if he hates magic itself, he uses magic items several times. He even used the golden perfect to subdue cheetah in Justice League of America during the Forever Evil arc.

[Robanker]

Chris Pine is the best Steve has ever been. He’s got a good dynamic with WW that I wouldn’t mind seeing in the comic.

This. Pine made Steve Trevor click in the best damn way.

He needs to stop being so goddamn insecure about his relationship with Diana in comics. I feel like he needs to be written as someone who has so much going on that while he really loves spending time with her, when they're not together he isn't moping about it. She's Wonder Woman. If he's not busy, he must at least be confident that she loves him and stop being a brat about it. Make the drama in their relationship outward, with them holding it together despite adversity.

Even Lois Lane fans (which I'm very much one) absolutely hate stories where Lois is nagging Clark about missing some appointment, but you can almost forgive it because she doesn't know he's Superman during most those tirades. Steve knows Diana is Wonder Woman. He needs to have his own thing going on and man the hell up.

That's half the equation. The other half, frankly, is making Steve himself interesting. Making him an action hero secret agent is a terrible idea because at his very best, he can only be a second rate superhero. Lois is a reporter, which isn't the bread and butter of any superhero per se (Clark is a reporter too, but his adventures as Superman take precedent). Steve needs a field he can actually grow to be among the best in. He's never going to be a top ten spy in the DCU, and being a pilot isn't impressive when everyone else can just fly themselves (Hal is likely to be better than him anyway, as is Cowgirl from GL).

Maybe have him switch to an army medic? He'd only be behind Doctor Mid-Nite(s). Perhaps he was wounded in the plane crash and can't return to active duty so he helps others get back on their feet. Show him as someone working with a disability the way Oracle used to, but let his story be a positive one and someone Diana would be inspired by as well. Just something unique to Steve Trevor that provides something to Diana others can't.


I like Steve. I do. I think Perez may have done irreversible damage to him taking him off the board for nearly 30 years (he did a lot of good things, Steve wasn't one of them), but he's not beyond saving. His handling post-Rucka, however, has left a lot to be desired.

[AmiMizuno]

Okay if we use Chris Pine has a temple what is it that comic Steve needs? What are his best moments in the comics? I often wonder with Steve himself involved with both the Amazons and Diana, should he have his own set of magical weapons? By that he borrowed some magical weapons from Diana. One thing I think would be cool is Steve is the first man the Amazons are okay with. Generally, there is always one connection to each other. We have the military so both are warriors. However, what else?

[marhawkman]

probably unpopular opinion: half Diana's rogues work best as frenemies who aren't always evil.

Ares is the god of war, but that means he's behind the scenes everywhere, and seeing him in person might actually be a diversion.

Giganta's ambitions are too petty for her to be a large scale threat ever. thus it feels better to have her plans be more of the infrequent antagonism type thing, than full-time supervillain.

Circe may or may not have been ruling Aeaea for millennia. If so, then she's obviously willing to be peaceful when the situation calls for it. Sure, this can be a plotting in the shadows type thing, or it can be an "I don't feel like causing trouble right now" thing. Also Wonder-Circe happened, and Circe well.. used the opportunity to try being a superhero?

then there's Deva... Deva is in a narrative position where she needs to find a new purpose in life. So changing focus from full villain would actually make sense.

[Ascended]

This. Pine made Steve Trevor click in the best damn way.

He needs to stop being so goddamn insecure about his relationship with Diana in comics. I feel like he needs to be written as someone who has so much going on that while he really loves spending time with her, when they're not together he isn't moping about it. She's Wonder Woman. If he's not busy, he must at least be confident that she loves him and stop being a brat about it. Make the drama in their relationship outward, with them holding it together despite adversity.

Clark and Lois had the same problem in the late 90's and all the 00's.

It was crap then with the Kents, it's crap now with Diana and Steve. They can have disagreements and arguments, and I totally support Di and Steve looking at the world in different ways and having different opinions and ways of approaching a topic. But these characters, they're not cheap reality tv idiots seeking empty melodrama for the sake of ratings; they're capable, confident, intelligent and wise people who are, simply put, better than that kind of self-destructive behavior.

I can believe that Steve is a little insecure; Diana's a goddess and she hangs out with friggin Superman; must be hard for a mortal human to feel like he can easily measure up against that. But Steve should have enough confidence in himself that this worry is a small thing in the back of his head that he knows is foolish, even if he can't completely banish the fear. I mean, Steve's a highly decorated and skilled soldier with tons to offer (at least hypothetically, when written right), he should know that he's a damn good man worth holding onto, and he should have enough faith in Diana to not worry about her being fickle.

Okay if we use Chris Pine has a temple what is it that comic Steve needs?

I think Pine's portrayal itself is the template to follow. He's confident, capable, and knows his worth. He doesn't take issue with the fact that he's there to support Diana in her mission. Men can watch that film and say "Man I wish I was as badass as Steve" and women can watch the film and say "Diana could have any man she wants, and I understand why that's Steve."

Like I've said before, write Steve Trevor like MCU Steve Rogers. You can't go wrong.

Anyone ever read the Wheel of Time? Steve should be treated like a Warder. I mean in a spiritual kind of way; the role they play and how they approach the duty, not so much the "magical bond" thing.

[SiegePerilous02]

Steve has some shaky worth as a supporting character throughout long stretches of the WW franchise due to weak handling, but him having the Chris Pine version gives him a significant leg up over the parade of boring duds that he was replaced with (Mike Schorr, Trevor Barnes, Champion, Nemesis). He will at least always have that and the status of being the default original to fall back on, no matter what other underwhelming things they periodically do with him.

He should never be insecure in his relationship with her. Writing him that way misses the whole point of the character, he's a competent manly man badass who also has no problems having a stronger competent girlfriend who needs to rescue him once and a while. And he partakes in more stereotypical "feminine" activities like cooking and cleaning with no insecurity.

Etta faces some similar problems when deviating from the original. Involving her in the military life and occasionally making her insecure about her weight are missing the point. Thankfully the Rebirth version seems to have avoided the latter story beat, but otherwise you could swap her out of scenes and replace her with Darnell or Michaelis and not much would change. She's a feisty civilian woman of size who still gets involved in Wonder Woman's adventures and shows that anyone can be a hero.

There are definitely things they should change from the Golden Age portrayals. Steve represented a lot of strong and still relevant ideas but his character needed fleshing out. Etta needed to have the fat jokes dropped (though even back then, she was never *just* a fat joke). But the foundations being respected while modernizing would lead to better characters than what we frequently get out of them. With Steve we've had it in the movie and to a lesser extent the Rucka portions of Rebirth, while Etta has LoWW and Earth One, but we need stuff like that on a far more consistent basis.

[kjn]

He should never be insecure in his relationship with her. Writing him that way misses the whole point of the character, he's a competent manly man badass who also has no problems having a stronger competent girlfriend who needs to rescue him once and a while. And he partakes in more stereotypical "feminine" activities like cooking and cleaning with no insecurity.

If you're writing Steve as a "manly man badass" you're doing something wrong! Pushing him in that direction, or trying to make him live up to that ideal, has caused a lot of the issues with him through history.

Movie!Steve was great because Jenkins and Pine were capable of pushing their Steve out of the "manly man" role.

[SiegePerilous02]

If you're writing Steve as a "manly man badass" you're doing something wrong! Pushing him in that direction, or trying to make him live up to that ideal, has caused a lot of the issues with him through history.

Movie!Steve was great because Jenkins and Pine were capable of pushing their Steve out of the "manly man" role.

I don't think they actually pushed him out of it, just reinforced that there isn't one way to depict it. I don't see how movie Steve isn't a badass man of action, he's just not insecure about being in love with a strong woman and isn't an entitled asshole (which makes him more badass). Which is the whole point of the character, and the biggest disconnect is the belief that he can't be both, when he can and should.

They don't really have a history of pushing him in that direction. They don't have have a history of really pushing him in ANY direction. The most common criticism is that he's really bland, not that he's hyper macho. Like in the Wilson run, where all did was whine about Diana not being around when he wasn't just...existing.

[Robanker]

Clark and Lois had the same problem in the late 90's and all the 00's.

It was crap then with the Kents, it's crap now with Diana and Steve. They can have disagreements and arguments, and I totally support Di and Steve looking at the world in different ways and having different opinions and ways of approaching a topic. But these characters, they're not cheap reality tv idiots seeking empty melodrama for the sake of ratings; they're capable, confident, intelligent and wise people who are, simply put, better than that kind of self-destructive behavior.

I can believe that Steve is a little insecure; Diana's a goddess and she hangs out with friggin Superman; must be hard for a mortal human to feel like he can easily measure up against that. But Steve should have enough confidence in himself that this worry is a small thing in the back of his head that he knows is foolish, even if he can't completely banish the fear. I mean, Steve's a highly decorated and skilled soldier with tons to offer (at least hypothetically, when written right), he should know that he's a damn good man worth holding onto, and he should have enough faith in Diana to not worry about her being fickle.



I think Pine's portrayal itself is the template to follow. He's confident, capable, and knows his worth. He doesn't take issue with the fact that he's there to support Diana in her mission. Men can watch that film and say "Man I wish I was as badass as Steve" and women can watch the film and say "Diana could have any man she wants, and I understand why that's Steve."

Like I've said before, write Steve Trevor like MCU Steve Rogers. You can't go wrong.

Anyone ever read the Wheel of Time? Steve should be treated like a Warder. I mean in a spiritual kind of way; the role they play and how they approach the duty, not so much the "magical bond" thing.

I get what you're saying, but by that same token, yeah, how could he measure up to Superman? Diana picked him, so on some level, he does. He needs to be confident in that otherwise he's not going to be seen as worthy of Diana. Everyone feels self-doubt from time-to-time, but I agree he needs to move past it if DC wants him to be Diana's one, true love. If they don't, that's absolutely fine and he can be an insecure mess, but what they see as relationship drama is more of the same crap that always ends in Trinity shipping.

Clark and Lois did have problems, and I remember how she would occasionally compare herself to Wonder Woman. I remember that bothering pretty much everyone. Lois fans wanted her to be more confident (she put a goddamn ring on his finger) and people who hated Lois just used that as evidence she wasn't good enough. It was a problem then and it's a problem now. Why do people like Lois? The undisputed best in her field, doesn't take crap from anyone, always willing to tell even Darkseid what is on her mind and absolutely relentless when driven, intelligent and yes, she's drawn to be attractive. Lois also has her list of faults and quirks that make her more idiosyncratic; she feels like a complete character.

Steve's got like half that going for him and he needs to round out the package. Pine did so effortlessly. No matter how well you craft Steve for Diana, some will prefer her with others and that's fine. Lois isn't everyone's favorite Super ship and they're like the poster couple for superhero relationships.

Steve (like Lois does) should have a different view than Clark (cynical opposed to optimistic) but they both still believe in the same thing. Steve and Di should be on the same page, but their wavelengths off just enough to compliment in that fashion. Yeah, they absolutely need to rise above petty relationship drama together. I'm reminded of how so many complain a married Superman has no relationship issues and I'm convinced those people have never been in a long-term relationship. They still take work and have other unique problems, many of which coming externally.

You hit the nail on the head with your assessment of Steve and Diana in the movie. Nobody questioned she was absolutely in control, but Steve wasn't seen as some ineffectual love interest either. He was cool, the audience liked him and believed the chemistry between the two leads. He was definitely the kind of person who would inspire Diana and break her heart with his passing. Pine's performance should absolutely be the model Steve Trevor follows.

He should never be insecure in his relationship with her. Writing him that way misses the whole point of the character, he's a competent manly man badass who also has no problems having a stronger competent girlfriend who needs to rescue him once and a while. And he partakes in more stereotypical "feminine" activities like cooking and cleaning with no insecurity.

This is my take as well. Steve's reply to "your GIRL rescues YOU?" should absolutely be "yeah, she's cool." He's a secure dude with no illusions about toxic masculinity. At least when written well in the modern era.

[Mel Dyer]

If you're writing Steve as a "manly man badass" you're doing something wrong! Pushing him in that direction, or trying to make him live up to that ideal, has caused a lot of the issues with him through history.

Movie!Steve was great because Jenkins and Pine were capable of pushing their Steve out of the "manly man" role.

Pine's Trevor was little too supplicant for my tastes. I think someone's got to swagger a little, here. Perhaps, Diana should play Han to Steve's Luke.

"See, ..I've got a plan to get us BOTH off this island--already ordained, by the gods! Meet me around the back, handsome, ..next to that invisible jet."

[kjn]

I don't think they actually pushed him out of it, just reinforced that there isn't one way to depict it. I don't see how movie Steve isn't a badass man of action, he's just not insecure about being in love with a strong woman and isn't an entitled asshole (which makes him more badass). Which is the whole point of the character, and the biggest disconnect is the belief that he can't be both, when he can and should.

I think my issue here is that movie Steve might be a badass, but it's not a defining quality, but an emergent one. Pushing "badass" first only leads to "I'm the goddamn Batman" territory, and will never say anything interesting. I want other personality traits used to describe Steve first.

Movie!Steve's personality had sensitivities, struggled with morality and how to act in the worst conditions imaginably, and with a world that suddenly became a lot larger and more mysterious.

They don't really have a history of pushing him in that direction. They don't have have a history of really pushing him in ANY direction. The most common criticism is that he's really bland, not that he's hyper macho. Like in the Wilson run, where all did was whine about Diana not being around when he wasn't just...existing.

I think the "whining" from Steve (and Diana!) is Wilson's run is seriously overestimated, and what there was of it was there for a story purpose, but sadly for an arc that was aborted by her leaving the title.

[Ascended]

This is my take as well. Steve's reply to "your GIRL rescues YOU?" should absolutely be "yeah, she's cool." He's a secure dude with no illusions about toxic masculinity. At least when written well in the modern era.

That's the thing. If Diana represents all that is good about feminism, then shouldn't Steve represent all that is good about masculinity? The guy can be a badass who knows that he can storm an enemy fortification, take down the enemy, get into a motorcycle race down the side of a mountain, save the village, perform cpr on the injured, and then cook a damn fine dinner afterwards before cleaning up around the house a little bit.....and not once consider the fact that he is somehow "less" because while he's doing all that, Diana is fighting a god for the fate of mankind and saving reality itself from being undone. Steven can and should be a "man's man" but that doesn't mean toxic.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think my issue here is that movie Steve might be a badass, but it's not a defining quality, but an emergent one. Pushing "badass" first only leads to "I'm the goddamn Batman" territory, and will never say anything interesting. I want other personality traits used to describe Steve first.

Movie!Steve's personality had sensitivities, struggled with morality and how to act in the worst conditions imaginably, and with a world that suddenly became a lot larger and more mysterious.

Nobody's saying it should be a defining characteristic, or at least not the only one, but it is one of the major points of the characters existence conceptually. Typical masculinity going hand in hand with typical "feminine" qualities and not making a big deal of what some would view as a contradiction was a pretty progressive idea for a support character created in the 1940s and is still relevant today. He is meant to be a desirable man for female readers who relate to the fantasy of Diana (being the awesome lead hero who gets to save the world and gets the guy at the same time) and a male view point character for certain members of the male audience who are shown a cool guy they can relate to who also shows them they are not less of a "man" for loving a strong woman.

We don't want to push him into "Goddamn Batman" territory...but there is a wide range to of ways to depict men than that. Hell, Bronze Age Batman was badass and masculine but not an entitled asshole, and he was a vastly better character because of it. All the other stuff is just character work that can be applied to Steve's basic template

I think the "whining" from Steve (and Diana!) is Wilson's run is seriously overestimated, and what there was of it was there for a story purpose, but sadly for an arc that was aborted by her leaving the title.

It can be acknowledged as being done for a story purpose, but the story and execution can still just be very uninteresting. Which in this case, IMO, it was. People were jumping on the run a little too quickly, but as it went on it was definitely underwhelming with a poor grasp on the characters and not all of it has to do with editorial interference.

That's the thing. If Diana represents all that is good about feminism, then shouldn't Steve represent all that is good about masculinity? The guy can be a badass who knows that he can storm an enemy fortification, take down the enemy, get into a motorcycle race down the side of a mountain, save the village, perform cpr on the injured, and then cook a damn fine dinner afterwards before cleaning up around the house a little bit.....and not once consider the fact that he is somehow "less" because while he's doing all that, Diana is fighting a god for the fate of mankind and saving reality itself from being undone. Steven can and should be a "man's man" but that doesn't mean toxic.

Steve called out Cadullo for toxic masculinity while still being very masculine himself. There isn't one way to do it.

Of course these days, embracing any form of masculinity can be considered toxic. I get the thought processes behind the term, but it's ended up as just an incredibly annoying buzzword. Sometimes I just prefer calling an asshole an asshole.

[marhawkman]

Of course these days, embracing any form of masculinity can be considered toxic. I get the thought processes behind the term, but it's ended up as just an incredibly annoying buzzword. Sometimes I just prefer calling an asshole an asshole.

Yeah being a jerk doesn't really have anything to do with being a GUY.

[WonderScott]

I’ve argued it before and I liked it in the movie that Steve’s a super spy and intelligence officer. Pine really brought the character to life and I enjoy that profession for the character as it can explore the human side of things in a world with the hope and threats of superheroes, gods, magic, aliens, myth, super science, etc.

ARGUS is a great fit for Steve and a great concept to build up in the Wonder mythos - it’s a pity they didn’t do more with it. To me, it’s a great backdrop for exploring not only Wonder Woman’s world, but the broader DCU too.

I also like the quasi-military thing for Steve as he can represent the positive side of the armed forces when other dubious characters exist in a shadowy, negative vision of the armed forces. There’s some drama and conflict there and it’s a place where Steve can be challenged and experience character growth.

The more I’ve been working on characters in my Wonder Woman Series Bible Thingee, the more I’m in favor of removing Etta Candy from the military and returning her to being Diana’s BFF. It’s too convenient for her to be so Steve-ish in that regard. She’s a character that gets wrapped up in Diana’s adventures, by virtue of her friendship with a superhero, and adds a different voice and POV to the triad of Diana, Steve, and Etta wherever they’re at or adventuring. A couple of new ARGUS agents could be in that role, that Etta has lately fulfilled.

Diana’s world needs to be bigger and broader and more complex with her friends, family, teammates, and adversaries, than streamlined and tighter and limited, IMHO.

Diana has her specific mythos, like Superman and Batman, but she’s also of the DCU and shouldn’t have to operate in a single corner of it (e.g. myth), despite how tempting that is to some editors and creators.