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  1. #1501
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    There are three separate issues here imo.

    1. How old are they? For me, ideally, Superman should be about 50ish, Bruce 35is, Diana hundreds +.
    I don't get too hung up on their exact ages (because comics) but assuming Jon and Damian are considerations I put Clark and Bruce in their mid 40's or so, with Bruce being a little older. Diana I prefer being centuries old but if she can't be immortal then I want her in the same age group as Clark and Bruce.

    2. How old do they appear? Superman should look a bit about 30ish, Bruce a bit older and Diana around 25-30, but with an ageless quality.
    I'd say if Clark's in his 40's or pushing 50, his longevity is probably only now starting to become noticeable and people might occasionally remark that he's aging well (but its not at the point where it really stands out as odd). So if he's (random number) 45, he probably looks closer to 35-40. If Bruce is in his 40's and been active as Batman for 15-20 years he's probably starting to look older than he really is. So if he's 45 he probably looks 50 (a badass, handsome 50, but war ages a man). Diana should have an ageless look to her but would be considered part of Clark and Bruce's generation because A) she debuted publicly around the same time and this is the Trinity so they're lumped together anyway, and B) she's too experienced, mature, and confident for anyone to think she's young (but doesn't look old enough to be in the JSA's generation).

    3. When did they become superheroes? I'm torn on this one. As a traditionalist, I want to give all due honor to Superman being the first, but given that he's also the best at everything with Diana being immortal? I lean towards Diana 1st, Superman 2nd, Batman 3rd.
    I prefer Clark being the first public hero, but that doesn't mean much when it comes to Diana's experience. The DCU is full of strange and crazy forces that existed in the shadows since forever ago. We've had demon knights in old England, powers like the Red and Green since life itself began, visiting Green Lanterns, mystery men fighting the good fight as nothing more than urban legends, etc. Not to mention Themyscria (and Atlantis, Nanda Parbat, Lazarus pits, immortal cavemen, etc) so its not like Diana's experience begins when Clark goes public. Hell even Clark's experience doesn't begin when he goes public.

    Diana being immortal is only a problem if you allow her to be written problematically. Personally, I don't consider Clark to be "best at everything" and I'm a huge Super-fan. Diana's a better fighter, a better tactician, a better diplomat and politician, a better teacher......really the only things Clark surpasses Diana in is raw strength (and then only by a relatively small margin, though I dislike her strength being defined by his) and his ability to inspire the common man. Diana's damn inspiring of course, but Diana's a royal from a fantastical place while Clark can relate to the average person's problems with direct experience. Clark can say inspiring things while helping you fix your fuel pump, yknow? By the same token, Diana can "speak the language" world leaders use far better than Clark, and likely does better giving UN speeches than he does.

    Now, if you want Diana to debut with the JSA while Clark doesn't arrive until the present day, then everything gets more complicated. Easiest answer I have there is that you treat the JSA like mystery men; they weren't public figures and weren't giving interviews and signing autographs and to the public at large were just myths who've been forgotten by today. After WWII ends you can either A) have Diana sent to limbo along with the rest of the JSA, B) have her continue her "out of sight" heroics, or C) have her retire from heroics and try other ways to accomplish her mission of spreading Amazon values by teaching, writing, whatever. Once Clark debuts, it gets Diana to go public as well, thus keeping her (in the public's mind) a peer of Superman's despite her having been around much longer.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-09-2019 at 07:13 PM.
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  2. #1502
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Beyond relatability (she's not Yoda) that's my main problem with Diana being immortal, it sounds nice in theory but it opens up a whole can of worms.

  3. #1503
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    What would be the issue of her being immort? IF anything she can sloely age.

  4. #1504
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I've always thought Diana's TV immortality is something that should have been incorporated into the comics. As many of us have had older co-workers, ..I don't see why her being older than Clark or Bruce, while also being a peer, should be problematic.

    Keeping a love affair with Steve Trevor might be problematic, but, imaginative storytelling should take care of that.

    I like it. I think it makes her sort of cool, just like on the show.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 12-09-2019 at 11:27 PM.
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  5. #1505
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean in Marston’s comics Diana and Etta found a way to keep people young. What if the purple health ray can reserve aging

  6. #1506
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Diana should bury Steve in the distant past. Later, she discovers a fruit-bearing tree grown over the mound. Men who eat of the fruit become hosts to Steve Trevor’s soul, allowing him to live forever in a variety of bodies.

  7. #1507
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    One thing I’m curious about is what about the only male cheetah any ideas what should happen to him or just a one off?

  8. #1508
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    It's a cute sixties-ish idea, Samantha Stevens and Jeannie Nelson were both immortal but looked young too. We live in a youth obsessed culture and I think it limits her. It cuts out any hope for a Smallville like interpretation with the Holliday girls and even makes the current DC Super Hero Girls concept implausible.

    I'd also expect someone with that many years behind them to be more savvy than she is. For instance the trick Veronica Cale and Cheetah played on her recently she should have seen coming from a mile away. She's too naive to be immortal. I get that her overly trusting nature has become a part of her character, but still to that level it better fits an ingenue.

  9. #1509
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    What do you guys think about cbr list having Rucka's run in the top 100?

    https://www.cbr.com/top-100-comics-2010s-100-96/tldr/10

  10. #1510
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    it feels underrated. It should be higher.

  11. #1511
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I'm not a WW purist, in the sense that I think Steve and other Golden Age and Silver Age supporting characters and story elements aren't replaceable ..or changeable. We've seen enough moderately good writers prove this, so.

    In no way is Dianas love affair with Steve essential to the telling of Wonder Woman's story. I think there is WW, without Steve. There must be.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 12-10-2019 at 11:34 PM.
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  12. #1512
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    But Diana would lose another character. We rarely see villians like Zara or Blue Snowman. Why should allow that to happen to Steve.
    Last edited by AmiMizuno; 12-12-2019 at 08:42 AM.

  13. #1513
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I'm not a WW purist, in the sense that I think Steve and other Golden Age and Silver Age supporting characters and story elements aren't replaceable ..or changeable. We've seen enough moderately good writers prove this, so.

    In no way is Dianas love affair with Steve essential to the telling of Wonder Woman's story. I think there is WW, without Steve. There must be.
    IMO, this was a lost opportunity of Crisis. If DC had left WW's debut in 1941, Steve Trevor could be a lost love left in the past. He really fits that time better. It's one of the things I liked about the Timm-toon Justice League epsiode, "The Savage Time."

  14. #1514
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    IMO, this was a lost opportunity of Crisis. If DC had left WW's debut in 1941, Steve Trevor could be a lost love left in the past. He really fits that time better. It's one of the things I liked about the Timm-toon Justice League epsiode, "The Savage Time."
    I agree, ..and I loved that episode.

    I just think ST needs some depth. Hes so boring, and worse...he and Diana are boring together.

    Lois doesnt need depth, comparatively speaking, because she is such a bloody nuisance, all the time.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 12-13-2019 at 02:50 PM.
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  15. #1515
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    Diana should bury Steve in the distant past. Later, she discovers a fruit-bearing tree grown over the mound. Men who eat of the fruit become hosts to Steve Trevor’s soul, allowing him to live forever in a variety of bodies.
    That is so incredibly creepy. They are being destroyed/killed so they can host his soul. Yech. And we already kinda did that once. Really, the only moral thing to do would be to destroy the tree so more innocent men don't die.

    Also, does fruit only grow after the old "Steve" dies? Or can we have 2 or 5 or 20 Steves at a time?

    I've always thought Diana's TV immortality is something that should have been incorporated into the comics. As many of us have had older co-workers, ..I don't see why her being older than Clark or Bruce, while also being a peer, should be problematic.
    It's problematic primarily in the early days. When they very definitively are not equals because they are inexperienced rookies and she's an old pro. Also, if she is very first, something stolen from Superman and given to her.

    Mind you, I hate immortality for any of them. Immortality always ends up depressing if everyone around the character isn't immortal. Generation after generation of watching friends, lovers, or even children die. It's not my thing (and I've argued against it for the JSA). And for Diana, it really plays into the godhood thing, which I really don't like. Like I said for the JSA - I think it's best they (and Diana if premiering in WWII era) either stay locked in a 1940-1970 timeframe or timeslide out of that origin.

    Immortal while on the island, absolutely. But not while off it.

    As I've said before, I find the WWII origin an impediment for Diana, not something so essential it should never be lost.

    And for me, supporting characters matter. While I do think having the same ones all along are very good for characters (particularly in terms of other media and accessibility), I like consistent supporting characters and settings. I will never be interested in a Superman where Lois doesn't exist or is dead. That's just how it is. Diana's are not quite as essential, but it takes a lot more to get me interested with them not there than it does with them there.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-13-2019 at 02:55 PM.

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