Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Agent Z]

This is also part of why I support the idea of changing how we look at Diana's powers. Her powers are measured against Superman's. She's in his weight class and is supposed to be his physical equal, all by Marston's original design.....which is great, except for the fact that this big aspect of the character is dependent on a male character from a completely different franchise.

That’s inevitable when your benchmark for a powerful hero is a guy. Male characters get their strength measured against Superman all the time and his female spin off, Supergirl and Power Girl, also have this happen to them.

If Clark gets de-powered then Diana has to as well.

Why? Clark doesn’t lose his powers when Diana loses hers. Hell, he still had his powers when Diana lost hers in the mod era.

If Clark gets more powerful, Diana has to as well. And Diana (or rather her creative team and editors) have no real say in the matter.

Seems to me that Diana has only gotten weaker or stayed the same the more powerful Clark has. Writers still insist on her retaining her weakness to bullets for instance.

Seems to me Wonder Woman's powers shouldn't be based on what her male peers can do. I mean, no one gets to be stronger than Clark, that's his thing,

Who’s asking for her to be stronger than Clark?

and everyone in DC has to abide by whatever ceiling Clark sets

No offense intended, but this rule is kind of a problem. We Superman fans can’t complain about everything revolving around Batman if we’re okay with stuff like this.

[AmiMizuno]

The issue becomes when DC acknowledges Diana is suppose to be somewhere in Clarke's strength class. Even when we ignore her strength class to Clarke, A lot of writers in her own book go back and forth her feats. They even make her look more helpless or she can be great. I mean the demi goddesses thing is questionable depending on who writes it. That's why I like Rucka's run. He shows us that Diana won fair and square.

Another one I would like to be explored is how the Greek gods work in Diana's world. I mean like how Ahodite dies and there is no love. Yet there is god loves another in Dc's universe. I think the best way is since Diana's faith is the Greek gods. People around her can be affected or she herself is the only one affected.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superman should overall be stronger (as Ascended said, that's more his thing than it ever has been for Diana who is not designed as a character completely the same way), but Wonder Woman shouldn't be far behind him. And they need to put their money where their mouth is as far as her being more skilled is concerned to balance it out.

DC should quit nerfing either one of them and leave them the hell alone. And they do that within WW's own book at times regardless of whatever is going on with Superman.

[AmiMizuno]

I agree right now Dc should respect Diana is at least close to Clark's level. She should be able to tie with him. That it's down to luck who wins. My main thing is how she can never win on her own within Wilson's run. Diana shouldn't be too far with Clark's power skill. Since DC themselves on and off claim that Diana is the second most powerful hero.

[KangMiRae]

Most of that just sounds like Wilson was a bad writer for Diana.

[Ascended]

ThatÂ’s inevitable when your benchmark for a powerful hero is a guy. Male characters get their strength measured against Superman all the time and his female spin off, Supergirl and Power Girl, also have this happen to them.

But its a far more exact and precise problem for Diana than it is for most others. She is, by design, just as strong (or close enough to make no difference) as Clark. Which means Diana's strength isn't simply limited by the ceiling Clark sets, it's completely defined by it.

Let's say DC assigns some arbitrary number to Clark to measure his strength. Let's say they say "Superman's strength is 100." Everyone else has to be somewhere below that figure but where exactly they fall isn't really a consideration. They might be an 80, or a 46, or whatever. Because no one at DC ranks and measures this beyond the fact that Clark is strongest. Except for Di. If Clark is 100, she has to be 99. Other strong characters like Aquaman aren't impacted or affected by shifts in Clark's powers over time nearly as much as Diana. And I'm not talking about short-term shifts like Clark losing/gaining powers for a year, I'm talking long-game.

Why? Clark doesnÂ’t lose his powers when Diana loses hers. Hell, he still had his powers when Diana lost hers in the mod era.

Exactly. Clark's strength, which is one of his most defining features, is set by no one and nothing except the character and his handlers. Diana, however, is defined by him.

Seems to me that Diana has only gotten weaker or stayed the same the more powerful Clark has.

Not true. Back in the day Diana could tug moons and planets around with her lasso. Once post-Crisis hit and Clark got de-powered? So did Diana. And not just so she didn't surpass him (as was the case with everyone else), her strength got set at a very specific point relative to his.

WhoÂ’s asking for her to be stronger than Clark?

No one. What I'm saying is that her strength is defined by another character. We don't define Clark's strength or Batman's intelligence or Barry's speed by other characters. And on the rare occasion we do, it's within the same franchise like comparing Barry's speed to Wally's. But that's in-franchise. Diana isn't part of the Super-verse.

No offense intended, but this rule is kind of a problem. We Superman fans canÂ’t complain about everything revolving around Batman if weÂ’re okay with stuff like this.

I'm okay with all the big guns being the top of their specific field. Bruce can be the world's greatest detective and it doesn't step on anyone's toes. Same goes for Clark and Barry and all the others. And I'm fine with this setting a ceiling no one else can pass. No one gets to be faster than Barry, etc etc. That's fine, DC is a pantheon and the League are the top gods of their respective domains. But Diana is still defined not by her own strength, but by Clark's. People say "Wow, Diana is (almost) as strong as Superman!" instead of saying "Wow, Diana is stupid crazy strong!"

I just figure Diana shouldn't be defined by someone else's franchise. She can obey the law of ceilings and not be stronger than Clark, but she doesnt have to match him so precisely either. And DC works hard to make sure she equals him.....rather than defining her under her own terms.

I'm probably not expressing this the way I want. Stupid words. I wrote a whole thing several pages back in this thread and got my point across better then.

[Agent Z]

But its a far more exact and precise problem for Diana than it is for most others. She is, by design, just as strong (or close enough to make no difference) as Clark. Which means Diana's strength isn't simply limited by the ceiling Clark sets, it's completely defined by it.

Let's say DC assigns some arbitrary number to Clark to measure his strength. Let's say they say "Superman's strength is 100." Everyone else has to be somewhere below that figure but where exactly they fall isn't really a consideration. They might be an 80, or a 46, or whatever. Because no one at DC ranks and measures this beyond the fact that Clark is strongest. Except for Di. If Clark is 100, she has to be 99. Other strong characters like Aquaman aren't impacted or affected by shifts in Clark's powers over time nearly as much as Diana. And I'm not talking about short-term shifts like Clark losing/gaining powers for a year, I'm talking long-game.



Exactly. Clark's strength, which is one of his most defining features, is set by no one and nothing except the character and his handlers. Diana, however, is defined by him.



Not true. Back in the day Diana could tug moons and planets around with her lasso. Once post-Crisis hit and Clark got de-powered? So did Diana. And not just so she didn't surpass him (as was the case with everyone else), her strength got set at a very specific point relative to his.



No one. What I'm saying is that her strength is defined by another character. We don't define Clark's strength or Batman's intelligence or Barry's speed by other characters. And on the rare occasion we do, it's within the same franchise like comparing Barry's speed to Wally's. But that's in-franchise. Diana isn't part of the Super-verse.



I'm okay with all the big guns being the top of their specific field. Bruce can be the world's greatest detective and it doesn't step on anyone's toes. Same goes for Clark and Barry and all the others. And I'm fine with this setting a ceiling no one else can pass. No one gets to be faster than Barry, etc etc. That's fine, DC is a pantheon and the League are the top gods of their respective domains. But Diana is still defined not by her own strength, but by Clark's. People say "Wow, Diana is (almost) as strong as Superman!" instead of saying "Wow, Diana is stupid crazy strong!"

I just figure Diana shouldn't be defined by someone else's franchise. She can obey the law of ceilings and not be stronger than Clark, but she doesnt have to match him so precisely either. And DC works hard to make sure she equals him.....rather than defining her under her own terms.

I'm probably not expressing this the way I want. Stupid words. I wrote a whole thing several pages back in this thread and got my point across better then.

I understand what you are saying but I would make the argument that DC does not work hard to make sure Diana equals Clark in strength most of the time. More often than not she is depicted as his inferior in that regard. For The Man Who Has Everything is perhaps the best example.

[mathew101281]

DC’s clear cut power structures have always been a disadvantage to me. Marvel doesn’t seem to have these kind of problems because it doesn’t have clear cut “most powerful” heroes. Ideally characters like Wonderwoman, Superman, Shazam and others would be in a general ambiguous power class with no obvious most powerful figure. I find this system makes for more interesting stories, and it prevents one of DC’s biggest problems. The current system puts characters like Shazam and Martian Manhunter into a “Superman-light” category that makes them seem less valid. Diana, being DC’s most prominent female hero slightly escapes being relegated to this category but still struggles with some of the same issues.

[Stanlos]

Superman should overall be stronger (as Ascended said, that's more his thing than it ever has been for Diana who is not designed as a character completely the same way), but Wonder Woman shouldn't be far behind him. And they need to put their money where their mouth is as far as her being more skilled is concerned to balance it out.

DC should quit nerfing either one of them and leave them the hell alone. And they do that within WW's own book at times regardless of whatever is going on with Superman.

A quick read of WONDER WOMAN THE COMPLETE HISTORY quite clearly debunks the notion that strength and power are not her thing. When you look at the design you see that it is very much her thing. And for the record it wasn't just measured against Superman. She was designed explicitly and expressly to wield a Dominant Force and she is the only one of the usual characters discussed for whom that was true. Her original name was actually SUPREMA the Wonder Woman.

[Ascended]

I understand what you are saying but I would make the argument that DC does not work hard to make sure Diana equals Clark in strength most of the time. More often than not she is depicted as his inferior in that regard. For The Man Who Has Everything is perhaps the best example.

No, she doesnt' have the feats to match Clark. But that's less about where she's supposed to stand in the power rankings, and more about DC not giving her the attention, quality, and effort they give Clark. Diana's still supposed to be Clark's (near) equal in raw strength. Generally speaking of course, there's always the short term changes like when Clark lost his powers in Truth or Diana's Mod years.

DC’s clear cut power structures have always been a disadvantage to me. Marvel doesn’t seem to have these kind of problems because it doesn’t have clear cut “most powerful” heroes.

Bruce Banner would like a word.

Generally you're right though. Marvel doesn't *usually* deal with hard cast power rankings like DC does. But Marvel still has plenty of people who are firmly established as being the best at what they do, Hulk being strongest, Richards being the smartest (just look at the riots caused by Moon Girl having a higher IQ than Reed!), Strange being the greatest mage, etc.

I don't think either approach is better or worse than the other, it's just different. DC is more archetypal, more mythological, with their heroes structured like a pantheon of gods who each rule over their respective realm or specialty.

[SiegePerilous02]

A quick read of WONDER WOMAN THE COMPLETE HISTORY quite clearly debunks the notion that strength and power are not her thing. When you look at the design you see that it is very much her thing. And for the record it wasn't just measured against Superman. She was designed explicitly and expressly to wield a Dominant Force and she is the only one of the usual characters discussed for whom that was true. Her original name was actually SUPREMA the Wonder Woman.

No, what I meant was the psychological impact being the most powerful being on the planet is integral to Superman in a way that it isn't for Wonder Woman. She doesn't lend herself to the same types of stories, and her fanbase likely wouldn't want her to be.

This isn't the same as saying her power isn't still a major factor or that she shouldn't be pulling off similar feats. because she should.

I don't think either approach is better or worse than the other, it's just different. DC is more archetypal, more mythological, with their heroes structured like a pantheon of gods who each rule over their respective realm or specialty.

Yeah, you really can't take everything Marvel does and apply it to DC across the board (and vice versa).

I like DC structured the way you lay it out for that reason and why I slightly prefer it. But when I want an alternate take, I'd go to Marvel since I like them too. It's honestly good that they are so different since it provides variety.

[mathew101281]

No, she doesnt' have the feats to match Clark. But that's less about where she's supposed to stand in the power rankings, and more about DC not giving her the attention, quality, and effort they give Clark. Diana's still supposed to be Clark's (near) equal in raw strength. Generally speaking of course, there's always the short term changes like when Clark lost his powers in Truth or Diana's Mod years.



Bruce Banner would like a word.

Generally you're right though. Marvel doesn't *usually* deal with hard cast power rankings like DC does. But Marvel still has plenty of people who are firmly established as being the best at what they do, Hulk being strongest, Richards being the smartest (just look at the riots caused by Moon Girl having a higher IQ than Reed!), Strange being the greatest mage, etc.

I don't think either approach is better or worse than the other, it's just different. DC is more archetypal, more mythological, with their heroes structured like a pantheon of gods who each rule over their respective realm or specialty.

Is the Hulk more powerful then the Silver Surfer? Their is a lot more to power then brute strength. Thor seems to be able to match the hulk in most instances.

[Ascended]

But we're not talking about the Power Cosmic, or any other particular power type. We're talking about super strength.

And going with the Power Cosmic is a total cheat. That's not a power, it's a plot device. Is the Spectre more powerful than Clark? Same thing. Plot device.

Anyway, I'm no expert on Hulk and Thor. But from what I know, even though they're on roughly even terms when it comes to sheer strength, when push comes to shove Hulk is credited with being the strongest.

[AmiMizuno]

What do you guys think about them putting Doris and Dr.Pysho together in Harley Quinn’s show

[Ascended]

What do you guys think about them putting Doris and Dr.Pysho together in Harley Quinn’s show

I've only seen a few clips on Youtube. But I f*cking love what I've seen so far.