Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[kjn]

I don't really get why so many of you hyper-focus on the treatment of the Amazons in these works. The way I often hear Azzarello's work described its as if 90% of the work was Amazons 'raping' and killing sailors. Morrison's work does resolve around the Amazons, but I think the critic that these Amazons aren't perfect kind of misses the point of the work. They are basically a Star Trek civilization, hyper advanced, but their achievements have made them arrogant prideful and disdainful of 'barbarian' foreigners.

Apart from what Tzigone said, I started up a whole thread on why the relation between Diana and the Amazons, and why it's hugely important to her character.

Note also that I think Morrison didn't do Diana any favours, that's why I specifically mentioned that he robbed her of her agency in the story.

[SiegePerilous02]

The best thing with Earth One volume 2 was Doctor Psycho. Morrison really managed to create a Doctor Psycho who was creepy, realistic, and worked.

I didn't *dislike* volume 1, and I thought there were some interesting bits thrown into the mix. I enjoyed his Etta quite a bit. It just didn't impress me enough to get volume 2. I'm rather lukewarm to volume 1. I don't hate it, but I'm not really a fan either.

Etta continues to be The Best in volume 2. Honestly, the Earth One versions of Etta (and the Holliday Girls) and Psycho are the best modern takes we've ever had and should be transplanted over to the main canon immediately.

I don't really get why so many of you hyper-focus on the treatment of the Amazons in these works. The way I often hear Azzarello's work described its as if 90% of the work was Amazons 'raping' and killing sailors. Morrison's work does resolve around the Amazons, but I think the critic that these Amazons aren't perfect kind of misses the point of the work. They are basically a Star Trek civilization, hyper advanced, but their achievements have made them arrogant prideful and disdainful of 'barbarian' foreigners.

Because the Amazons are not just some minor aspect of the mythos, they are the foundation of Wonder Woman's story. Killing babies and sailors and exhibiting hatred towards men is 90% of what the Amazons do in Azz's run, and it's ass backwards. There's a lot of cool stuff in that run and Diana herself is written well for the most part, but the Amazons drag it down.

Morrison's are hardly perfect either, and fall short of Marstons's, Perez's (minus the tech), Rucka's and very likely DeConnick/Jimenez's. But he at least shows what Hercules did to them, so their attitude is a lot more understandable than Azzarello's Amazons. And all it took was like 8 pages or so, it wasn't hard. Plus the outside world has people like Max Lord and his cohorts reacting to them as potential threats just for existing and acting as aggressors, before they even do anything, so they still come out looking better than the folks running things in Man's World.

[Ascended]

I love that Diana fights supervillains, but in a way, she’s also supposed to fight the worst of “us” and be a transformative character in-story and in reality.

I'd much rather read a story where Diana tackles some real concerns with inequity in the world than a story where she tackles a monster.

But my god, I can already hear people bitching about SJW agendas and ruining the medium.

Etta continues to be The Best in volume 2. Honestly, the Earth One versions of Etta (and the Holliday Girls) and Psycho are the best modern takes we've ever had and should be transplanted over to the main canon immediately.

Etta and the Girls are about the only thing that makes me even tempted to try volume 2. I've heard great things about Psycho, and he is maybe my favorite WW villain, but....if I want good Psycho I'll watch clips from that new Harley Quinn cartoon. I feel like that show has done better with Psycho, despite the comedy bent, than most arcs that've used him.

Because the Amazons are not just some minor aspect of the mythos, they are the foundation of Wonder Woman's story. Killing babies and sailors and exhibiting hatred towards men is 90% of what the Amazons do in Azz's run, and it's ass backwards. There's a lot of cool stuff in that run and Diana herself is written well for the most part, but the Amazons drag it down.

I still maintain that Azz wrote the best Diana we've had in a very, very long time. Say what you will about other aspects of the run, but he wrote Diana damn well I think. Even with the reliance on swords and spears over the lasso.

Morrison's are hardly perfect either, and fall short of Marstons's, Perez's (minus the tech), Rucka's and very likely DeConnick/Jimenez's. But he at least shows what Hercules did to them, so their attitude is a lot more understandable than Azzarello's Amazons. And all it took was like 8 pages or so, it wasn't hard. Plus the outside world has people like Max Lord and his cohorts reacting to them as potential threats just for existing and acting as aggressors, before they even do anything, so they still come out looking better than the folks running things in Man's World.

I think his Amazons were....okay. I think the culture and civilization Morrison built there wasn't too bad, but volume 1 focused on an argument that didn't paint them in a great light. Had the story left the Amazons as they were but explored a different topic with them, I think the flaws and faults wouldn't have felt so big.

[Koriand'r]

I still maintain that Azz wrote the best Diana we've had in a very, very long time. Say what you will about other aspects of the run, but he wrote Diana damn well I think. Even with the reliance on swords and spears over the lasso.

No, not even. Azz's Diana was so cold that when she declared her love for everyone to Hades it came off as hollow and from out of nowhere. Like her origin, we never did get the genesis for why she would feel that way. In almost every major battle of the entire run she has to be rescued by someone, usually a man. After all the endless buildup with First Born she doesn't actually beat him, she tricked him. Which in itself is was shocker because in multiple instances she's overly naive and not very bright. Sorry for re-litigating this again, but no. Just no.

[Pinsir]

I get that the comic genre tends to fetishize origin stories as being the most important reason as to why characters are good or bad, but I don't think Wonder Woman has to come from a perfect society to be Wonder Woman. The reason why Wonder Woman exists is still seeded in each Amazon culture though;
>>> In Azzarello's story, Wonder Woman draws from her people their tradition of fraternity and sisterhood, expanding them out to their logical conclusion. She comes to recognize the faults in her culture and attempts to use her new authority to rectify this and create a better society.
>>> In Morrison's story, Wonder Woman is an evangelist for her society's philosophy, but she desired to escape the island because she had grown weary of living there.

[kjn]

I get that the comic genre tends to fetishize origin stories as being the most important reason as to why characters are good or bad, but I don't think Wonder Woman has to come from a perfect society to be Wonder Woman. The reason why Wonder Woman exists is still seeded in each Amazon culture though;
>>> In Azzarello's story, Wonder Woman draws from her people their tradition of fraternity and sisterhood, expanding them out to their logical conclusion. She comes to recognize the faults in her culture and attempts to use her new authority to rectify this and create a better society.
>>> In Morrison's story, Wonder Woman is an evangelist for her society's philosophy, but she desired to escape the island because she had grown weary of living there.

I think the reason a lot of origin stories holds such a status is because (a) they are often the only character-changing story, (b) they are the only stories that are constistently reimagined and retold. The latter is really important when one views superhero stories as modern mythology.

Does Diana have to come from a perfect society? No. But she should come from a fundamentally good and healthy one, where Diana is viewed as an integral member.

Wonder Woman was created as a radical figure, here to question and challenge the patriarchy of our world, with the Amazons as the backdrop and the example that she wanted to reach. By tearing down the Amazons to be worse than Man's World (Azzarello) or to be no better than Man's World (Morrison) that radical edge is removed. By making Diana into an agent of change not of Man's World but of Themyscira—which both Azzarello and Morrison do—Diana loses even more of that edge. She becomes a supporter of the status quo and thus of patriarchy.

Which is another reason why I think the reception to G Willow Wilson's run was so tragically misguided. Wilson is probably the most politically aware writer that Wonder Woman has ever had. She set out to bring that radical edge back to Diana, but she wanted to do so organically, and that required critiquing the earlier stories and the Diana they had built.

ETA: It is possible to give a nuanced depiction of Themyscira that explores fissures and conflicts and flaws in the society. The in-continuity writer who has managed it best so far was Simone with The Circle. However, I think the examples to follow in exploring Amazon society should be Shannon & Dean Hale with Diana: Princess of the Amazons and Kami Garcia's "To Leave Paradise" in Wonder Woman #750.

[SiegePerilous02]

Which is another reason why I think the reception to G Willow Wilson's run was so tragically misguided. Wilson is probably the most politically aware writer that Wonder Woman has ever had. She set out to bring that radical edge back to Diana, but she wanted to do so organically, and that required critiquing the earlier stories and the Diana they had built..

While I think the initial knee-jerk negative reactions to Wilson's run were seriously jumping the gun, I don't think the reception was misguided as the run went on and later arcs played out. The problem was not having Diana be very effective herself and spending too much time critiquing instead of building it back up. Editorial interference may have had a hand in cutting her short, but I feel a good writer (or a writer that is just well suited for a particular character) could have still created something worthwhile despite the constraints. Even Simone, who ultimately had a disappointing run, was able to produce much better stories in comparison despite being handed some editorial lemons.

Being politically minded is all well and good, but if the end result has the main heroine doing more internal naval gazing and requiring assistance in situations she really shouldn't need it as the veteran and competent hero she is, it's not really worth it because she's so unimpressive. Wonder Woman is supposed to be awesome and fun; challenging her physically and philosophically is one thing, but it needs to be balanced. We're not paying money to see her have nothing to do but that. Despite the many criticisms that can be levied at their Amazons, I'd take Azz and Morrison's Dianas over Wilson's any day of the week.

Wilson has the advantage over them in that she depicted Diana's relationship with her mother and the Amazons as being healthy and loving, but on the other hand, neither of them have had a chunk of their Amazons betray their queen to team up with Grail for...reasons??

[Nyssane]

Wilson's run actually started out pretty decent. It wasn't until she introduced Maggie and had her one-up Diana any chance she got that her run fell apart. Diana constantly felt like she was unable to accomplish anything. And I really don't know what it is with Wonder Woman writers coming in and introducing brand new characters and expecting long-time readers to fall in love with them. The comics medium is just incompatible with brand new characters. Maggie never felt like she earned any of the page-time she was given, and it felt like a slap in the face whenever she would save the day over Diana. I fear that Tamaki will do the same thing as in her She-Hulk run, she surrounded Jen by all new characters that didn't offer longevity to the character or series.

I mean, when was the last time we actually got a brand new character in Wonder Woman that had any sort of success? I guess Ferdinand and Veronica Cale? The gorillas were poorly received, Diana's black cat Galenthias will likely never be seen again, Zola was a bust, Jason was utterly despised, and now Maggie. I'm not against introducing new characters but don't try to push them to "main character" status without any effort or build up.

[SiegePerilous02]

Wilson's run actually started out pretty decent. It wasn't until she introduced Maggie and had her one-up Diana any chance she got that her run fell apart. Diana constantly felt like she was unable to accomplish anything. And I really don't know what it is with Wonder Woman writers coming in and introducing brand new characters and expecting long-time readers to fall in love with them. The comics medium is just incompatible with brand new characters. Maggie never felt like she earned any of the page-time she was given, and it felt like a slap in the face whenever she would save the day over Diana. I fear that Tamaki will do the same thing as in her She-Hulk run, she surrounded Jen by all new characters that didn't offer longevity to the character or series.

I mean, when was the last time we actually got a brand new character in Wonder Woman that had any sort of success? I guess Ferdinand and Veronica Cale? The gorillas were poorly received, Diana's black cat Galenthias will likely never be seen again, Zola was a bust, Jason was utterly despised, and now Maggie. I'm not against introducing new characters but don't try to push them to "main character" status without any effort or build up.

They pretty much are, and I think it's helped that Rucka was able to come back a second time and reinforce them. Helps that Ferdinand was able to fit in pretty naturally with Steve and Etta, and Veronica has cool connections to some of the classic villains now. They seem better integrated than other examples. Before them, we pretty much just have Artemis and Cassie right? Nobody else since Perez really sticks around.

[AmiMizuno]

What so CBR wrote a article about her plane. I hope Wilson’s arc never is adapted
https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-fly...jet-explained/

[WonderScott]

The character I’d keep around from Wilson’s run is Atlantiades - they’re a great character and I can see some opportunities for further stories with them.

There’s room for Diana to fly and still have the invisible jet, although I don’t know why TPTB keep stripping away the Amazons’ role in inventing it. Rucka’s answer to it’s creation worked and I’d dive even deeper into the Amazons being technologically advanced.

[Ascended]

The character I’d keep around from Wilson’s run is Atlantiades - they’re a great character and I can see some opportunities for further stories with them.

There’s room for Diana to fly and still have the invisible jet, although I don’t know why TPTB keep stripping away the Amazons’ role in inventing it. Rucka’s answer to it’s creation worked and I’d dive even deeper into the Amazons being technologically advanced.

Atlantiades seemed interesting, from what I saw. Somewhat morally gray but that just makes them interesting.

I understand why DC doesn't let the jet remain the invention of Amazons. The island isn't that big, why would they invent not just air travel, but hyper-sonic air travel? And there certainly seems no need for stealth when the whole region is already shrouded by divine magic.

But then, I don't like the idea that Amazon technology resembles our own. I think they'd have advanced in different ways and not merely have the same stuff we do, but with a sci-fi bent.

I think the New52 making the plane a military prototype works fine (though Diana not using it while Steve did is far less fine). A plane designed to compete against superhumanity seems like exactly the kind of stuff Argus would create.

[kjn]

While I think the initial knee-jerk negative reactions to Wilson's run were seriously jumping the gun, I don't think the reception was misguided as the run went on and later arcs played out. The problem was not having Diana be very effective herself and spending too much time critiquing instead of building it back up.

I don't want to turn this into another debate on Wilson's run, but I probably was less precise in what I meant there.

What I think Wilson set out to do—and was only partially successful at—was to point a finger at the dichotomy between Diana as the agent of change from an all-female utopia and the modern Wonder Woman, a protector of Man's World. Ares's and Giganta's questions on what she does with her powers fit with that. The three mythketeers and them calling out Diana as privileged is even more explicit.

It was that piece that I wanted to point out. Wilson is the first Wonder Woman writer that I know of to really question if modern Wonder Woman as written really is worthy of that title, given the origin of the character.

[AmiMizuno]

I think one of the best reasons for the amazons to be advance is simple. They have Ares or the Doom gate. They need to make sure they are ready to fight their creatures. That's why they made the purple healing ray so they will still have their numbers. Something like Bloodline tech one Earth one makes sense. I do like the idea that maybe the reason for planes is simple. I mean generally, the Amazons have had other Islands Like transformation island. What if they did that to transport quickly. Like in Earth One.

[Ascended]

I think one of the best reasons for the amazons to be advance is simple. They have Ares or the Doom gate. They need to make sure they are ready to fight their creatures. That's why they made the purple healing ray so they will still have their numbers. Something like Bloodline tech one Earth one makes sense. I do like the idea that maybe the reason for planes is simple. I mean generally, the Amazons have had other Islands Like transformation island. What if they did that to transport quickly. Like in Earth One.

I want the Amazons to be advanced, I just don't want the trajectory of their development to mirror our own.

Even if they have a reason to invent air travel, and I call that suspect at best, why would they invent a device that looks like a real plane? I'd think an Amazon flying device would resemble something Da Vinci designed, or a chariot (like their gods use), more than it'd resemble a Boeing 747.

When I see Amazons using stuff that looks like technology we have, but with a slightly sci-fi sheen, it makes them feel like "regular people, fifty years in the future" instead of making them feel like their own unique culture with its own unique needs and considerations.