Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Ascended]

The Bana-Midghall already kind have a lot of problematic tropes associated with them that it' probably be best to leave the sex-pirates as a relic of the New 52 era.

Agreed.

What Azzarello was trying to do was interesting conceptually, but the Amazons, in a main continuity WW book, was the wrong place to do it. Best to just leave it in the past.

[SiegePerilous02]

If they want to have a tribe of Amazons (or a race of women similar to the Amazons) that represent the evil of misandry taken to the extreme, that's what Queen Clea and her city is for and she should really be utilized more. It is unnecessary to have the Paradise Island Amazons or even the Bana Amazons display that evil, and it is especially problematic in the latter case since the majority of them are non-white (vs. the "good" mostly white Amazons of Paradise Island).

Clea and her daughter Ptra exist to be twisted mirror images of Hippolyta and Diana. And when they are toppled, they are not replaced with benevolent male leaders to prove that a male driven society is superior. Instead they are replaced by Queen Eeras and Princess Octavia to reaffirm the power of female rule, but one that is just. Clea represents the original patriarchal Amazon myth without using the Amazons themselves.

[Agent Z]

It would probably be for the best to just drop the misandrist thing for female villains. The whole thing reeks of a 60s reactionary misunderstanding of feminism anyway and has rarely if ever been portrayed as anything more than cartoonishly insulting.

[kjn]

And I'd also argue that putting in a plotline of Wonder Woman fighting a misandrist tribe turns her entire raison d'être inside out. Wonder Woman isn't here to defend Man's World, she is here to change it.

That doesn't mean I'm categorically against introducing men into the Wonder Woman mythos, or evil misandrist women. But the writers had better make sure they can get some proper feminist themes going first.

[SiegePerilous02]

The original Clea stories arguably do not paint a defense of Man's World as it is (because she isn't from there), it's more an attack on the original myths of the Amazons and the anti-women propaganda that they spread. Marston, of course, is not much more sympathetic to the "manlings" either, and replaces Clea with another example of pro-female rule/myth.

https://www.comicbookherald.com/wond...ns/#more-46229

On the Venturians:

"We discussed Queen Eera and Princess Octavia, the Atlantean royals of Aurania with Diana’s allies. They’ve been constantly embroiled in a war with the Venturians, giant women who worship the goddess ‘Madra’ and warriors who enslave ‘manlings’ or men, if you will. They are also decidedly more medieval and akin to assumptions made about Amazons by most people. The echo of the original myth against the reconstructed new fantastic myth, the Wonder Woman myth.

Venturian Ideals, their worst of the worst, represent misandry and a sort of strawman vision of The Amazons and their myth. And it’s why seeing what Marston does with it is an insightful display of intent. He writes a story where the misandrist leadership is toppled, replaced by a misogynistic one, made up of the ‘manlings’ who were enslaved, showcasing just how decent (hint: not at all) they are. Having revealed the toxicity of the men and the problems of the ex-leadership, Marston then writes a story where they’re removed too, replaced with Princess Octavia, who Diana trained, who’s an Amazon. And so the old myth which was acknowledged via almost a pastiche is dismantled and in its place is erected the new Amazon myth, because that’s how Marston rolls. The myth of the Wonder Woman saves all."

On Clea herself:

"Venturians have been discussed, as has their leadership. Now it must be revealed who exactly said leader was, that leading misandrist of the broken myth. It’s Queen Clea, of course. She’s everything about Lyta curdled and twisted. She’s the strawman Lyta, with a daughter, Pytra, who’s also a hollow echo of Diana. They’re a sad pair, as Clea just uses her daughter like an object and Pytra, being raised by Clea, is no good either. They’re both a tragic mess and Clea is that hollow echo of that myth that Marston blew up. Even if Diana saved Venturia from misandry, Clea remains at large, ever the echo of the horrible myth of old that was torn down, ever the symbol of hate, which must be confronted."

[AmiMizuno]

I wouldn't mind if some of the female villains were sexist. Diana has met a few sexist men and it would be interesting to see her reacted to a female villian.

[Nyssane]

There are still a handful of misogynist supervillains out there -- what's wrong with having some of the opposite?

[kjn]

There are still a handful of misogynist supervillains out there -- what's wrong with having some of the opposite?

Nothing, and everything.

I see no reason to saddle Wonder Woman with one such as long as there are many more themes and concepts that I deem to be of far higher priority for her.

Superhero comics is filled with unexamined misogyny. Introducing a misandric supervillain (or superhero, for that matter) to me would shortcircuit the much needed critique that is needed. It'd become "you too" rather than a much needed examination of power dynamics, structural patriarchy, and enabling of harassment that to me is needed both within the comics themselves and within the industry itself.

[Perseus]

The original Clea stories arguably do not paint a defense of Man's World as it is (because she isn't from there), it's more an attack on the original myths of the Amazons and the anti-women propaganda that they spread. Marston, of course, is not much more sympathetic to the "manlings" either, and replaces Clea with another example of pro-female rule/myth.

https://www.comicbookherald.com/wond...ns/#more-46229

On the Venturians:

"We discussed Queen Eera and Princess Octavia, the Atlantean royals of Aurania with Diana’s allies. They’ve been constantly embroiled in a war with the Venturians, giant women who worship the goddess ‘Madra’ and warriors who enslave ‘manlings’ or men, if you will. They are also decidedly more medieval and akin to assumptions made about Amazons by most people. The echo of the original myth against the reconstructed new fantastic myth, the Wonder Woman myth.

Venturian Ideals, their worst of the worst, represent misandry and a sort of strawman vision of The Amazons and their myth. And it’s why seeing what Marston does with it is an insightful display of intent. He writes a story where the misandrist leadership is toppled, replaced by a misogynistic one, made up of the ‘manlings’ who were enslaved, showcasing just how decent (hint: not at all) they are. Having revealed the toxicity of the men and the problems of the ex-leadership, Marston then writes a story where they’re removed too, replaced with Princess Octavia, who Diana trained, who’s an Amazon. And so the old myth which was acknowledged via almost a pastiche is dismantled and in its place is erected the new Amazon myth, because that’s how Marston rolls. The myth of the Wonder Woman saves all."

On Clea herself:

"Venturians have been discussed, as has their leadership. Now it must be revealed who exactly said leader was, that leading misandrist of the broken myth. It’s Queen Clea, of course. She’s everything about Lyta curdled and twisted. She’s the strawman Lyta, with a daughter, Pytra, who’s also a hollow echo of Diana. They’re a sad pair, as Clea just uses her daughter like an object and Pytra, being raised by Clea, is no good either. They’re both a tragic mess and Clea is that hollow echo of that myth that Marston blew up. Even if Diana saved Venturia from misandry, Clea remains at large, ever the echo of the horrible myth of old that was torn down, ever the symbol of hate, which must be confronted."

Queen Clea was specifically created for this purpose and she is one villain that needs to be reintroduced and updated back into the Wonder mythos. I don't see how this couldn't be a good thing. I think its important to have introspection and making sure that, as in the "Aresia" JL episode, the amazons aren't in the next step of their ideology. Being that an island free from violence was the result of 3000 years of peace and prosperity vs "there are no men here there for it is objectively better" stereotype .

Nu52 amazons was the result of someone looking at the propaganda and showering themselves in it.

[Psy-lock]

The problem with Clea is her connection to Atlantis and as a result to Aquaman franchise. You can't just bring her back in the WW book and then pretend she doesn't exist in the Aquaman book. Well, I guess you can, but that would be bad writing.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's already implied that Clea is connected to one of the lost 7 kingdoms of Atlantis. One of the 7 statues in the chamber Arthur is taken to is an Amazon-style woman, so I think that was being set up to be Clea or her predecessor. Johns also said at one point that each of the 7 kingdoms would be tied to a JL member (not sure how that would work beyond Diana, and maybe Clark if Poseidonis and Lori Lemaris were going to be worked in there.

But God only knows if/when we will ever see that.

[Perseus]

The problem with Clea is her connection to Atlantis and as a result to Aquaman franchise. You can't just bring her back in the WW book and then pretend she doesn't exist in the Aquaman book. Well, I guess you can, but that would be bad writing.

Oh do I have a story focusing on just that. Boiled down, the origin of Clea and her "kingdom" was based around blood magic and sorcery. Basically, she was someone that defected from Atlantis as some mad prophet with a small but threating following. See her preaching's are still centered around the original theories that Marston had for her, albeit cranked up to an eleven with blood magic, sorcery, and slavery. She'd come across the Amazons led by Hippolyta's mother, the Queen Goddess that became Ares's lover in the original myths, and they did battle freeing the slaves. In a last ditch effort, Clea used a powerful blood sacrifice to regain her power but, it back fired, causing her, her "kingdom", and her followers to be cast into the void. Until she finds a way out.

[Nyssane]

I think Clea and the Venturians being a "dark mirror" of Diana and the Amazons have more story potential than just writing Clea off as "just another Atlantean and therefore must fight Aquaman".

[Psy-lock]

It's tricky to do shared characters (as proven by Donna Troy) especially with the constant reboots and revamps. And there's also the danger of Clea becoming a full time Aquaman villain. He doesn't have a good Rogues Gallery to begin with, so his writers and readers would gladly welcome a potentially strong addition to it. While WW writers don't have a good history with utilizing her villains well and apparently some readers don't want Clea anyway?

[Frontier]

There are still a handful of misogynist supervillains out there -- what's wrong with having some of the opposite?

I think it's fine as long as it fits the character. Like, I don't think Circe has a high opinion of men beyond using them as tools (granted she probably sees both genders that way).