Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[SiegePerilous02]

Nothing, and everything.

I see no reason to saddle Wonder Woman with one such as long as there are many more themes and concepts that I deem to be of far higher priority for her.

Superhero comics is filled with unexamined misogyny. Introducing a misandric supervillain (or superhero, for that matter) to me would shortcircuit the much needed critique that is needed. It'd become "you too" rather than a much needed examination of power dynamics, structural patriarchy, and enabling of harassment that to me is needed both within the comics themselves and within the industry itself.

Wonder Woman's not really being saddled with one if Clea was invented by her actual creator.

It's more that writers shouldn't just introduce her for the misandry reason in isolation, it'd be better if the WW verse was firing on all cylinders and had a wide variety of antagonists representing specific evils. The Golden Age comics were a little better at having that, within their own dated context, than subsequent versions. Clea didn't skew things too badly when she was surrounded by the likes of Diana, Hippolyta, Eeras, Octavia and Desira and male villains like Psycho, Mars, the Duke, etc.

[marhawkman]

The original Clea stories arguably do not paint a defense of Man's World as it is (because she isn't from there), it's more an attack on the original myths of the Amazons and the anti-women propaganda that they spread. Marston, of course, is not much more sympathetic to the "manlings" either, and replaces Clea with another example of pro-female rule/myth.

https://www.comicbookherald.com/wond...ns/#more-46229

On the Venturians:

"We discussed Queen Eera and Princess Octavia, the Atlantean royals of Aurania with Diana’s allies. They’ve been constantly embroiled in a war with the Venturians, giant women who worship the goddess ‘Madra’ and warriors who enslave ‘manlings’ or men, if you will. They are also decidedly more medieval and akin to assumptions made about Amazons by most people. The echo of the original myth against the reconstructed new fantastic myth, the Wonder Woman myth.

Venturian Ideals, their worst of the worst, represent misandry and a sort of strawman vision of The Amazons and their myth. And it’s why seeing what Marston does with it is an insightful display of intent. He writes a story where the misandrist leadership is toppled, replaced by a misogynistic one, made up of the ‘manlings’ who were enslaved, showcasing just how decent (hint: not at all) they are. Having revealed the toxicity of the men and the problems of the ex-leadership, Marston then writes a story where they’re removed too, replaced with Princess Octavia, who Diana trained, who’s an Amazon. And so the old myth which was acknowledged via almost a pastiche is dismantled and in its place is erected the new Amazon myth, because that’s how Marston rolls. The myth of the Wonder Woman saves all."

On Clea herself:

"Venturians have been discussed, as has their leadership. Now it must be revealed who exactly said leader was, that leading misandrist of the broken myth. It’s Queen Clea, of course. She’s everything about Lyta curdled and twisted. She’s the strawman Lyta, with a daughter, Pytra, who’s also a hollow echo of Diana. They’re a sad pair, as Clea just uses her daughter like an object and Pytra, being raised by Clea, is no good either. They’re both a tragic mess and Clea is that hollow echo of that myth that Marston blew up. Even if Diana saved Venturia from misandry, Clea remains at large, ever the echo of the horrible myth of old that was torn down, ever the symbol of hate, which must be confronted."

I think part of it is that serious discussion of feminism means defining the difference between good and bad feminism. Like in JLU with Arisia. Arisia hates men and actually tries to kill them all. Arisia's idea are presented as a bad thing. But they're also a feminist thing.

[Jcogginsa]

I think part of it is that serious discussion of feminism means defining the difference between good and bad feminism. Like in JLU with Arisia. Arisia hates men and actually tries to kill them all. Arisia's idea are presented as a bad thing. But they're also a feminist thing.

Except they aren't a feminist thing. Feminism means fighting for equality. The idea that Feminists hate men is misogynist propaganda designed to erode support for feminist movements.

[SiegePerilous02]

Except they aren't a feminist thing. Feminism means fighting for equality. The idea that Feminists hate men is misogynist propaganda designed to erode support for feminist movements.

Clea being the embodiment of the misogynistic propaganda and needing to be taken down is part of the point.

[AmiMizuno]

I had the idea that Queen Clea hasn't appeared in Aquaman is because she cut off her kingdom. She and Queen Hippolyta had made a deal and so she and her kingdom could never be found. She was supposed to be the next ruler of all the seas. She is the ruler of the Black Sea and maybe one other sea. She was trying to rule over a rebel group who made their own kingdom.

[Agent Z]

There is a fundamental problem with the contest as a premise. Namely, that it doesn't portray Diana as more heroic than the other Amazons just more powerful and a better fighter.

[Frontier]

There is a fundamental problem with the contest as a premise. Namely, that it doesn't portray Diana as more heroic than the other Amazons just more powerful and a better fighter.

Maybe that’s why they add the caveat of the Amazon who wins will probably never be able to come back if they get chosen, so even just participating is a courageous decision.

Although I’m not sure if Diana is meant to come off as heroic moreso just the Amazon most qualified to fulfill her mission.

[Gaius]

I don't think the important part of the contest is anything to do with the actual contest itself (beyond being a way to demonstrate to a a reader basic powers or abilities) it's Diana defying her mother to join in the first place.

[kjn]

What Gaius said. From a storytelling standpoint, the key is the conflict between mother and daughter.

Now, the contest can serve several other different secondary purposes (like showcasing abilities) or establish some ground elements of the Amazon society. But I also think it's important that Diana isn't more heroic than the other Amazons. She is the best of them and their messenger to Man's World, but her values and her skills are of the Amazons.

[marhawkman]

What Gaius said. From a storytelling standpoint, the key is the conflict between mother and daughter.

Now, the contest can serve several other different secondary purposes (like showcasing abilities) or establish some ground elements of the Amazon society. But I also think it's important that Diana isn't more heroic than the other Amazons. She is the best of them and their messenger to Man's World, but her values and her skills are of the Amazons.

Yeah to me it makes sense to say that being heroic is in some way a pre-requisite for the contest. Whether because candidates are filtered based on it, or if we assume that it's simply normal for Amazons to be heroic.

[AmiMizuno]

In Marston Diana almost lost. This is why I have an issue with Diana already being blessed before the contest. It gives us the feeling she willl quickly win. I know Diana is suppose to win but the thought of her almost losing would give her the fact she woon it fair.

[Mel Dyer]

I had the idea that Queen Clea hasn't appeared in Aquaman is because she cut off her kingdom. She and Queen Hippolyta had made a deal and so she and her kingdom could never be found. She was supposed to be the next ruler of all the seas. She is the ruler of the Black Sea and maybe one other sea. She was trying to rule over a rebel group who made their own kingdom.

The solution to Clea feeling less Atlantaean and like an Aquaman character is making Venturia one of many kingdoms that she has conquered, over a long, immortal lifetime. When she turns her attention to Man's World, all of it, Wonder Woman rushes in to save us from the subjugation that once befell her Amazons.

[Gaius]

In Marston Diana almost lost. This is why I have an issue with Diana already being blessed before the contest. It gives us the feeling she willl quickly win. I know Diana is suppose to win but the thought of her almost losing would give her the fact she woon it fair.

Tbh, I don't really think it matters if Diana has powers during the contest because even if she doesn't, unless a writer wants to take a real left turn on an origin redo, there is no question that Diana will be the winner.

[AmiMizuno]

I'm not saying she shouldn't be the winner. Rather wouldn't you want to see Diana struggle just a bit?

[Agent Z]

What Gaius said. From a storytelling standpoint, the key is the conflict between mother and daughter.

Now, the contest can serve several other different secondary purposes (like showcasing abilities) or establish some ground elements of the Amazon society. But I also think it's important that Diana isn't more heroic than the other Amazons. She is the best of them and their messenger to Man's World, but her values and her skills are of the Amazons.

We have no shortage of stories about Hippolyta and Diana in conflict that has nothing to do with the contest. The debate among the Amazons to reunite with the outside world is a better example if you want to see the Amazons' values reflected. I'd argue the contest is one of the reasons the Amazons are still hit with the stigma of being seen as a outdated since no civilized country picks their representatives based on their skill in sports.