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  1. #3316
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I'm not talking about WW84. I'm talking about the Nu52 comics, animated movies including the JLU based JL vs Fatal Five, Snyder movies, it's only recently thanks to Rebirth that the lasso has reasserted itself again and the argument about the lasso also ties into the discussion about how WW is depicted, since there is still this perception among a large contingent of the audience that she is a simple warrior woman who kills for funsies.
    You specifically mentioned, "modern-day creators" of which Patty Jenkins is one. You also say, "Especially when the competition are doing a better job of depicting their respective heroes weapons/tools." However, WW84 again shows that not to be the case, and Wonder Woman: Black and Gold has a story dedicated to Diana's "most precious weapon against the darkness."

    The Nu52 ended in 2016 and Rebirth started the same year. The Nu52 movies I grant you, but even in that, Wonder Woman Bloodlines only uses the sword and shield for the end battle with Medusa. So even within the Nu52 animated verse, Diana was being repositioned away from warrior woman.

    And is it true that a large contingent of the public sees her as Warrior Woman when her first film ends with her saying she "believe[s] in love?" Also as a Feminist, LGBT, and nonviolent protest icon for decades, I don't think anyone in the larger public believes she kills for fun.

  2. #3317
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    One of my issues with the lasso is that I think it puts her into the wrong archetype. Diana shouldn't be a warrior, she should be a wrestler. She doesn't seek to attack, she seeka to dominate. Or at least that's the way I like her.
    Well... warrior and wrestler are kinda the same thing? The lasso is great at immobilizing enemies.

  3. #3318
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She actually hurt Steppenwolf in the Snyder Cut and she used the bracelet explosion power. And Superman showing up to help her after she'd already done major damage to him is different than him coming to her rescue. And no, she did not go down in two hits from Superman. She also killed Steppenwolf because, what the hell else was she supposed to do with him? Send him to a prison that could not hold him?
    The bracelet explosion power seems to be the only powerful thing Diana is capable of. Her sword was just bouncing off Steppy's armor, she just barely could physically tangle with him, she NEEDED help the second time around to just hold him off (a C list villain btw), also she just stands there after using her "power move" there is no follow up from "DC's greatest warrior". Superman did all the damage btw, that was specifically shown, his hits made shockwaves and tossed Steppy around like a ragdoll, broke his armor and lasered his horn off (a thing Clark would totally do... smh).

    Superman man handled EVERY. SINGLE. LEAGUE. MEMBER. all at once then one at a time, like what? Diana was too slow for her "power move" an was headbutted into the ground like nothing, as Frank Miller would say "a leaf in the wind next to an angry god".

    Uh Steppy was already defeated, you know by the real superhero powerhouse. Diana kill stealing after all the hard work was done for her was not an empowering moment. Also, Steppy was going back to Darkseid broken and defeated, the implication of what would have happened to him would be far more terrifying that just watching a lifeless head roll over to Darkseid.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    One interesting note is that Diana has a relatively defensive fighting stance. In BvS she tanked DOOMSDAY!
    Yeah fun how that works. In BvS she was shown as competent and an equal to Clark, now... leaf compared to a god.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  4. #3319
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    One of my issues with the lasso is that I think it puts her into the wrong archetype. Diana shouldn't be a warrior, she should be a wrestler. She doesn't seek to attack, she seeka to dominate. Or at least that's the way I like her.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well... warrior and wrestler are kinda the same thing? The lasso is great at immobilizing enemies.
    A warrior is just a person who fights, that's it. I think GuyMcNights said it best, that DC writers/creative directors say Diana is a warrior but don't know or care to explore what that means to Diana. To them warrior is the D&D character class archetype aka short for "mindless murder machine that doesn't listen to reason". A jedi is a warrior, wrestler is a warrior, shoalin monks can be warriors, vikings are warriors, etc... but do they fight the same? to they have the same codes? do they fight with the same emotions? No, no, and no. So what kind of warrior is Diana?
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  5. #3320
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    It seems like some people are confusing what they want Diana to be with what she actually is.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-12-2021 at 11:06 PM.

  6. #3321
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It seems like some people are confusing what they want Diana to be with what she actually is.
    No. There's several volumes and runs were she is exactly what I want her to be.

  7. #3322
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well... warrior and wrestler are kinda the same thing? The lasso is great at immobilizing enemies.
    I don't mean WWE, I mean real wrestling, where your goal isn't to punch, it's to incapacitate the other person. Not just a show of grace, but also of your comfortable power. And yes, the lasso is a perfect tool to accompany this archetype of the wrestler, because it can be both used peacefully and agressively but is always about dominating the adversary.
    Last edited by Alpha; 04-13-2021 at 03:14 AM.

  8. #3323
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It seems like some people are confusing what they want Diana to be with what she actually is.
    Wonder Woman has been one of the most inconsistent comic book characters since the beginning. Marston and Joye Hummel wrote her as someone that enjoyed adventure in other worlds and there are countless examples of her enjoying tussling around and even wrestling in those books, which to me was the strongest version of the character because it turned her into an Amelia Earhart type that wanted to help everyone reach their maximum potential including herself. But at the same time she was being featured in Justice Society as a secretary that still fought battles in the USA, but couldn't be taken to Europe and Asia. Plus she had to schedule meetings and contact everyone and give them information.

    And it only got worse after this era. So we've always had to choose a version of the character and either ignore or downplay the ones that least interest us. Most people seem to be taken by the version that George Perez started, whereas I think she lacks the groove and excitement that she has for example in the William Messner Loebs issues, which despite boring plotting had probably some of my favorite writing on her. Specially when she's on top of the spaceship, riding it like a charriot and screaming of excitement.

    Rant over

  9. #3324
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I'm curious about what the "Wonder" in "Wonder Woman" means to most people. The fact that Marston was convinced to change her name from Superia to Wonder Woman, is one of the most fortunate things to happen to the character and people should remember what it means.

    If you had to create a Wonder Woman analog, what would you name the character? If you would call her War Woman (like in Invincible) you clearly want something very different from me.

  10. #3325
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm curious about what the "Wonder" in "Wonder Woman" means to most people. The fact that Marston was convinced to change her name from Superia to Wonder Woman, is one of the most fortunate things to happen to the character and people should remember what it means.

    If you had to create a Wonder Woman analog, what would you name the character? If you would call her War Woman (like in Invincible) you clearly want something very different from me.
    Her name was Superia?!?!

    Oh, thank goodness they changed that omg. Wonder Woman is way better. Diana dodged a bullet before she learned how to block one.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-13-2021 at 03:40 AM.

  11. #3326
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Yea. I think it sounds more like a villains name. I'm surprised they never even used it. Also they were going to give her a collar at one point.

  12. #3327
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It seems like some people are confusing what they want Diana to be with what she actually is.
    And what is she exactly?

    With a character around this long, there are many versions of her (Ditto others like Superman, Batman, etc.) and people have different preferences for each of them. She isn't firmly any more what you think she is than what others think she is.

  13. #3328
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    A warrior is just a person who fights, that's it. I think GuyMcNights said it best, that DC writers/creative directors say Diana is a warrior but don't know or care to explore what that means to Diana. To them warrior is the D&D character class archetype aka short for "mindless murder machine that doesn't listen to reason". A jedi is a warrior, wrestler is a warrior, shoalin monks can be warriors, vikings are warriors, etc... but do they fight the same? to they have the same codes? do they fight with the same emotions? No, no, and no. So what kind of warrior is Diana?
    Diplomatic peacekeeper warrior?

  14. #3329
    Incredible Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Wonder Woman has been one of the most inconsistent comic book characters since the beginning. Marston and Joye Hummel wrote her as someone that enjoyed adventure in other worlds and there are countless examples of her enjoying tussling around and even wrestling in those books, which to me was the strongest version of the character because it turned her into an Amelia Earhart type that wanted to help everyone reach their maximum potential including herself. But at the same time she was being featured in Justice Society as a secretary that still fought battles in the USA, but couldn't be taken to Europe and Asia. Plus she had to schedule meetings and contact everyone and give them information.

    And it only got worse after this era. So we've always had to choose a version of the character and either ignore or downplay the ones that least interest us. Most people seem to be taken by the version that George Perez started, whereas I think she lacks the groove and excitement that she has for example in the William Messner Loebs issues, which despite boring plotting had probably some of my favorite writing on her. Specially when she's on top of the spaceship, riding it like a charriot and screaming of excitement.

    Rant over
    There is a clear concept of what she is suppised to be. Most fans think that Marston, Perez, Ruka are among the best writers. I thinlk all 3 have developed great elements to the character. But one thing for is for sure. WW has not been consistently portrayed as this glorified one note warrior woman for ost of her history. Through most of her publicaion, she did not need a sword and shield to feel powerful. She used to be far more badass and powerful before they tried to focus so much on a sword instead of her powers. And her personality was also more vibrant, colorful, sassy. Before current era started to portray as a one note warrior or a one note ''pacifist'' that talks long and boring.

  15. #3330
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    You specifically mentioned, "modern-day creators" of which Patty Jenkins is one. You also say, "Especially when the competition are doing a better job of depicting their respective heroes weapons/tools." However, WW84 again shows that not to be the case, and Wonder Woman: Black and Gold has a story dedicated to Diana's "most precious weapon against the darkness."

    The Nu52 ended in 2016 and Rebirth started the same year. The Nu52 movies I grant you, but even in that, Wonder Woman Bloodlines only uses the sword and shield for the end battle with Medusa. So even within the Nu52 animated verse, Diana was being repositioned away from warrior woman.

    And is it true that a large contingent of the public sees her as Warrior Woman when her first film ends with her saying she "believe[s] in love?" Also as a Feminist, LGBT, and nonviolent protest icon for decades, I don't think anyone in the larger public believes she kills for fun.
    Patty is the exception not the rule.

    I am well aware that there are creators who are working to counter the warrior woman perception, however as you yourself mentioned there is still a large contingent of fans who would say otherwise. Warrior Woman isn't in the rear view mirror yet.

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