Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

Would you prefer Etta Candy crash on Themyscira instead of Steve?

Like, that actually soubds awesome. Not bashing Steve, but I would actually enjoy that. But I suppose Etta being Diana's first friend in Man's World is good enough

[DarkViKing]

Would you prefer Etta Candy crash on Themyscira instead of Steve?

I dont know, havent thought about that to be honest.
But considering i like Etta more than Steve, maybe.

I do like this part of the Canon, where Steve is pretty much the character that introduces her to the world beyond Themyscira...but i personally just dont see anything in the character outside of that.

Like, that actually soubds awesome. Not bashing Steve, but I would actually enjoy that. But I suppose Etta being Diana's first friend in Man's World is good enough

Yeah, Etta is a good example of a character that i feel has substance that Steve to me lacks.
You can do much more with the character and have her around Diana without feeling like a plot or character device.

[Perseus]

It's very simple, a character lifting 6 trucks or just 3 doesn't make them more more or less appealing. It doesn't matter how strong you make Blue Snowman, unless you have a cool concept of action and story, nothing will make them cool. You can give Diana another Hulk clone but that character will totally fail. The Joker is street level but people still want to see him fight characters like Superman

How do I put this in a way you'll understand.... Diana since the golden age has always been insanely powerful. period. There is no going around it, she's a planet buster, she can move stars, survive black holes, and move faster then light. No matter how hard DC tries, and boy do they try, they can't take that away from her for me. I for one happen to enjoy the premiere female hero in DC comics to stick to her powerful roots and not consistently progress backwards while everyone else moves ahead of her. But I know you don't consider this an issue you pretty much only seem to care if Diana isn't using her lasso against every man, woman, and child she comes across or when someone doesn't like a bad movie you like. If you want to continue to read stories wondering if she can even fly (no I don't care if you don't want her to, she's been flying since the 80s) or where her godly strength went (I also don't care if you want her to be an artificial baby born in a test tube) or why she's only fighting human goons/henchmen like an episode of the Lynda Carter show, be my guess. Ironically there are tons of those stories these days, the ones that "don't care about HOW powerful she is" and I don't hear many if any praise for them. Its almost like where a hero should be in power does actually affect readership and how well the story is. And uh, duh, cool action and story are important so is her power-level, its like its all suppose to work together or something. I have problems with the Nu52 but honestly First Born as a villain concept isn't one of them and I'm actually interested in seeing him in Wonder Woman: Black and Gold if only to be disappointed after the fact based on the bland stories we've gotten (I'm excluding the new creative team because we are at issue 2 and they seem like they're doing a great job). So while I'm not surprised that you responded to this post by doing exactly what I said I've had a problem with i.e. this idea that its one or the other, that Diana or her villains can't have both insane power and cool action/story despite previous versions of the characters or how many countless other heroes have it all that Diana is the one that has to no NEEDS to pick and choose, I am surprised how far people will go to defend it.

[Alpha]

For goodness sake, I'm not saying Diana CAN'T be insanely powerful. I'm saying it doesn't matter. So whether she is or isn't won't help her stories. The best Superman stories aren't about him moving planets. Creativity in action scenes is what makes them exciting. Or in other words, size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it.

[Perseus]

I though putting Blue Snowman in a giant mech suit was enough of a power upgrade.

Its fine, but right now she seems like a slightly more advanced Mister. Freeze. That entire sensation comics story was bogged down by Diana's lack luster performance being once again easily replaceable by a street level or mid-tier hero. Snowman was secretly working for Cale to cause some blight on farm lands for a something to advance Cale's business ventures, or something like that I know the full details, nice classic superhero concept. Then we get to the actual superhero parts of the story, Diana struggling to move in the snow, conveniently forgetting she can fly, Snowman not really getting to show off how powerful her tech is y'know what makes blue snow so special that Diana struggles with it, what makes it different from regular snow. Then there is the actual action part which isn't entertaining because Diana isn't using her powers I might as well be watching a more colorful Batman fight Freeze. So, yeah mech suit is nice but its been around since the post-crisis era and because it hasn't been made to feel like a threat to a proper Wondy with all her powers its just not a threat.

[Perseus]

For goodness sake, I'm not saying Diana CAN'T be insanely powerful. I'm saying it doesn't matter. So whether she is or isn't won't help her stories. The best Superman stories aren't about him moving planets. Creativity in action scenes is what makes them exciting. Or in other words, size doesn't matter, it's what you do with it.

And I'm saying it does matter and I gave multiple reasons why but I'm not surprised how bull headed you are about it. No, they do have Superman be pretty powerful though, cause that's part of his character kind of like Wonder Woman.

"And uh, duh, cool action and story are important so is her power-level, its like its all suppose to work together or something."

But its been 4 days we've been arguing about this non stop and if anything you've given me a better case as to why I think its important. Its clear we aren't moving from our positions, so to refrain from this going too far, I'm stopping right here.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superman is very powerful and his best fights utilize that and creativity, so it's not mutually exclusive.

Whether people agree that she's dead even with Superman in terms of power or slightly below but still close and comparable, either way DC doesn't display much creativity or power with her. I'm in the latter camp, but still, stuff like JL/the Snyder Cut putting her more on the level of Aquaman than Superman is a downer for people on both sides of the aisle.

[Alpha]

And I'm saying it does matter and I gave multiple reasons why but I'm not surprised how bull headed you are about it. No, they do have Superman be pretty powerful though, cause that's part of his character kind of like Wonder Woman.

"And uh, duh, cool action and story are important so is her power-level, its like its all suppose to work together or something."

But its been 4 days we've been arguing about this non stop and if anything you've given me a better case as to why I think its important. Its clear we aren't moving from our positions, so to refrain from this going too far, I'm stopping right here.

Okay we'll stop it here.

[Robanker]

Controversial take, but this power level discussion is pretty much why I don't come to Diana's boards anymore. Hell, it happens on the Superman boards less frequently and it's still too goddamn much there. This power scaling nonsense is so nauseatingly juvenile.

If the most interesting thing about the hero to you is how much they lift, I'm convinced you care less about Diana as a character and more about backing the strongest horse. I get it. I love myself a ridiculously strong Superman and Wonder Woman-- Hell, I love when The Spectre no-sells anyone-- and when some new kid shows up and I get told they're on their level, I think "uh huh. We'll see in six years once you're no longer the new hotness" but goddamn. This is to another level.

Diana didn't persevere this long as an icon because she was the physically strongest or most skilled. There have been times she's far lower on the totem pole than she is now. She endures because of who she is and what she means to people, and while yes to some that's "the biggest baddest bitch" it's just so tonally braindead a take to get on a hill and die for. And that's coming from a Superman fan, a character who is routinely picked apart by all other parts of the universe to give his qualities and elements to other people to prop them up-- the one thing they usually let him have is "#1 bench press" and I'm telling you it don't mean jack ****.

Diana's cool not because she can outpunch Supergirl or because she's diet Xena who can look like she's going to slice you in half but needs to stay PG-13 because of the imprint/demographic. She's cool because she's goddamn Wonder Woman. Like Superman, she doesn't always get or have to be top dog to be great. Like Superman, when I see other people job to prop her up (hello DCeased), I just end up thinking "F#@$ this person's take on Superman/Wonder Woman/Batman/etc." Yes, DC puts their non-bats through the mud sometimes, but it seemingly permeates every discussion here.

Her most iconic story is beating up Batman to protect a girl or the movie in which she's at golden age Superman power levels until the end where she gets some nebulous power up that's still pretty tame in the universe she's set in. Raw power has never really been what's made her appeal to so many people.

Like, that actually soubds awesome. Not bashing Steve, but I would actually enjoy that. But I suppose Etta being Diana's first friend in Man's World is good enough

It feels pretty significant that Diana has an example of masculinity sans toxicity before she enters our world which is so rampant with the two intertwined. She needs to know the ideal before she meets the reality or it'd be very awkward for her to remain entirely idealistic. Essentially, even if you take the romance away, Steve's importance is similar to the Kents insofar as instilling our title hero with an example of their new environment developing the best of what those people represent-- humanity in the Kents, men in Steve. They're essentially the ideal the character hopes to see replicated in others. This isn't to say she'd learn nothing but misandry on Themyscira (and writers who say otherwise are incredibly lazy at best, misogynist at worst) but an isolated society will never be able to paint a fair picture of another culture they do not interact with, for good or ill. Men are a distant memory to the Amazons who themselves live in paradise. They just aren't going to have an educated or informed understanding of the outside world anymore. At best, they'd be able to instill Diana with the good sense to not judge the outside world harshly based on first blush, but there's a good case to be made for Diana struggling to see the good in men if she lands in a LOT of 2021's America. If not Steve, the writer would essentially have to use someone to fulfill the same role later on of "the guy who proves we ain't all bad." You're essentially just moving Steve's position in the order of events, but "Steve" as an idea is kind of necessary to build up the iconic iteration of the character.

Etta is essentially something Diana is already very familiar with-- a fun, friendly woman to be her friend. She doesn't really provide as much for Diana to grow from in an origin as Steve does. Frankly, he doesn't even need to survive the island. He can succumb to his wounds and still provide Diana with a good example of men for her to hold onto while she gets accustomed to man's world and meets her colleagues in the Justice League who would cement it.

[Gaius]

Controversial take, but this power level discussion is pretty much why I don't come to Diana's boards anymore. Hell, it happens on the Superman boards less frequently and it's still too goddamn much there. This power scaling nonsense is so nauseatingly juvenile.

If the most interesting thing about the hero to you is how much they lift, I'm convinced you care less about Diana as a character and more about backing the strongest horse. I get it. I love myself a ridiculously strong Superman and Wonder Woman-- Hell, I love when The Spectre no-sells anyone-- and when some new kid shows up and I get told they're on their level, I think "uh huh. We'll see in six years once you're no longer the new hotness" but goddamn. This is to another level.

Diana didn't persevere this long as an icon because she was the physically strongest or most skilled. There have been times she's far lower on the totem pole than she is now. She endures because of who she is and what she means to people, and while yes to some that's "the biggest baddest bitch" it's just so tonally braindead a take to get on a hill and die for. And that's coming from a Superman fan, a character who is routinely picked apart by all other parts of the universe to give his qualities and elements to other people to prop them up-- the one thing they usually let him have is "#1 bench press" and I'm telling you it don't mean jack ****.

Diana's cool not because she can outpunch Supergirl or because she's diet Xena who can look like she's going to slice you in half but needs to stay PG-13 because of the imprint/demographic. She's cool because she's goddamn Wonder Woman. Like Superman, she doesn't always get or have to be top dog to be great. Like Superman, when I see other people job to prop her up (hello DCeased), I just end up thinking "F#@$ this person's take on Superman/Wonder Woman/Batman/etc." Yes, DC puts their non-bats through the mud sometimes, but it seemingly permeates every discussion here.

Her most iconic story is beating up Batman to protect a girl or the movie in which she's at golden age Superman power levels until the end where she gets some nebulous power up that's still pretty tame in the universe she's set in. Raw power has never really been what's made her appeal to so many people.

Ye gods, it was annoying. It took up like three-four threads over like three days.

[Robanker]

Ye gods, was it so annoying it took up like three-four threads over like three days.

I just can't, man. I love Diana to pieces but good lord.

[Gaius]

I just can't, man. I love Diana to pieces but good lord.

Whoops, typed that incorrectly. I was agreeing with you.

What I get for typing on a phone.

[Alpha]

It feels pretty significant that Diana has an example of masculinity sans toxicity before she enters our world which is so rampant with the two intertwined. She needs to know the ideal before she meets the reality or it'd be very awkward for her to remain entirely idealistic. Essentially, even if you take the romance away, Steve's importance is similar to the Kents insofar as instilling our title hero with an example of their new environment developing the best of what those people represent-- humanity in the Kents, men in Steve. They're essentially the ideal the character hopes to see replicated in others. This isn't to say she'd learn nothing but misandry on Themyscira (and writers who say otherwise are incredibly lazy at best, misogynist at worst) but an isolated society will never be able to paint a fair picture of another culture they do not interact with, for good or ill. Men are a distant memory to the Amazons who themselves live in paradise. They just aren't going to have an educated or informed understanding of the outside world anymore. At best, they'd be able to instill Diana with the good sense to not judge the outside world harshly based on first blush, but there's a good case to be made for Diana struggling to see the good in men if she lands in a LOT of 2021's America. If not Steve, the writer would essentially have to use someone to fulfill the same role later on of "the guy who proves we ain't all bad." You're essentially just moving Steve's position in the order of events, but "Steve" as an idea is kind of necessary to build up the iconic iteration of the character.

Etta is essentially something Diana is already very familiar with-- a fun, friendly woman to be her friend. She doesn't really provide as much for Diana to grow from in an origin as Steve does. Frankly, he doesn't even need to survive the island. He can succumb to his wounds and still provide Diana with a good example of men for her to hold onto while she gets accustomed to man's world and meets her colleagues in the Justice League who would cement it.

Yeah you're right. I mean, it's obvious, but I forgot about it for a moment.

[John Venus]

I don't want WW to be solely defined by power level, that's how you end up with Warrior Woman, but to say that power level doesn't matter at all is disingenuous. Marston wanted to create a character who was kind, compassionate and caring but at the same time was powered by the Greek Gods. He didn't want those aspects to be preceived as weak. The most consistent pattern with WW's power level is that they often backslide when she is pit next to Superman, Batman or Aquaman. It rarely goes the other way. That's a discrepancy that needs to be pointed out and remedied, imo and that's something that can be fixed without turning comics into a mindless brawl between characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't want WW to be solely defined by power level, that's how you end up with Warrior Woman, but to say that power level doesn't matter at all is disingenuous. Marston wanted to create a character who was kind, compassionate and caring but at the same time was powered by the Greek Gods. He didn't want those aspects to be preceived as weak. The most consistent pattern with WW's power level is that they often backslide when she is pit next to Superman, Batman or Aquaman. It rarely goes the other way. That's a discrepancy that needs to be pointed out and remedied, imo and that's something that can be fixed without turning comics into a mindless brawl between characters.

I agree with this and the power levels matter, but I do agree with the other posters that having 3-4 separate threads devoted to this topic gets very exhausting.

I think all the regular know where each other stand at this point.