Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, he gets the character pretty well, I've never understood why he of all people was a WonderBat guy. But its his preference, no matter how wrong it is. In fact this course of events could have served to really be the beginning of things, with her imprisonment leading to Superman catching on that he had feelings for her or something like that.

Probably. Every writer who nails a particular character has one blind spot, I guess WW/Batman is Rucka's . Cheetah was the other one for his first run, but he made up for that in his second. Still had weird shipping habits for her though- Barbara/Etta is so random.

Even if I had to put up with the shipping, I'd still take it over Bruce being all "get out" to the woman who saved his life after she killed Max. God the IC period was so awful.

[Gaius]

Between his two runs, I think it was mainly because Steve was an off the table option in his first run since it's the same basic premise of superpowered heroine and non-powered male.

[Sacred Knight]

I still have a funny feeling that what he really would have done if he could was have a former romance between Diana and Barbara, not Etta. I can't prove that, but the dynamic they had at the beginning of the Rebirth run just seemed filled with sexual tension. My belief is the idea was vetoed so went with a lackluster plan B.

Even if I had to put up with the shipping, I'd still take it over Bruce being all "get out" to the woman who saved his life after she killed Max. God the IC period was so awful.

I mean, there was some precedence to it with how grimdark Batman had become at that time. It didn't really feel out of character for him to be a giant dick about the whole thing, unfortunately. To me it was more Superman's reaction that just felt so incredibly off to his character. They had far more of a bestie relationship back then. Ideally they both would have been with her as originally planned, but Superman turning his back on her hit worse to me at the time.

[Guy_McNichts]

Am I remembering it wrong, but wasn't there an issue of Superman during the whole Max Lord-to-Infinite Crisis where it was suggested or even implied that deep down Clark knew he was being unfair to Diana? Really it was he felt guilty knowing she was only in this position because of him (thought it was really Bruce's fault) and taking all the blame for the sake of his reputation. Because I remember that was a big thing in the fallout where Diana refused to explain why she needed to kill Max because she didn't want anyone to know he'd been mind-controlled.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think that would've at least added some nuance and make Clark a little more sympathetic. Like, okay, he isn't being fair to Diana, but he's conflicted about it, and presumably, he would eventually realize that even if he didn't agree with killing Max, he shouldn't turn his back on her.
But like a lot of the nuance in this storyline, it got thrown out the window by the time we hit Infinite Crisis, where it just devolved into: "Diana kills and will get offended if you say she shouldn't. Superman and Batman don't approve."

Even then, I think where they really messed up was in the resolution.
They clearly wanted this situation where the Trinity is at odds with one another and no one is completely right or wrong. The problem is they wound up creating one where Wonder Woman comes across as completely in the right, while Superman and Batman--he alleged best friends--completely scumbag her. And rather than roll with that and have Clark & Bruce realize they've done her wrong and apologize, they end Infinite Crisis with everyone just kind of forgetting about it.

No...worse. They try to suggest the real issue was that Diana doesn't understand humans and needs a secret identity, which Bruce very helpfully set up for her without even being asked.
So not only did they have Superman & Batman scumbag Wonder Woman, now they're gaslighting her into thinking she was the problem all along. Home run, DC!

It's funny looking at Rucka's original pitch...a story that seemed designed to affirm Wonder Woman as a paragon of integrity and principle, and Superman and Batman as devoted allies who absolutely trust her without question even if they don't agree with her choices...and see DC turned it into a story that...I don't know about anyone else, but my takeaway from Infinite Crisis was that Clark and Bruce are terrible friends who do not deserve Diana, and she's far too nice to call them out on it.

[Sacred Knight]

You might be remembering right, but I'm also cloudy on the details in his titles too. I think Lois was pretty firmly on Diana's side and gave Clark some crap about how he was handling it. But he shouldn't have needed her to tell him that or to be a good friend in the first place.

[SiegePerilous02]

I still have a funny feeling that what he really would have done if he could was have a former romance between Diana and Barbara, not Etta. I can't prove that, but the dynamic they had at the beginning of the Rebirth run just seemed filled with sexual tension. My belief is the idea was vetoed so went with a lackluster plan B.

I get that vibe too and would 100% believe it if Rucka ever confirmed it. And it is how it should have gone.

I mean, there was some precedence to it with how grimdark Batman had become at that time. It didn't really feel out of character for him to be a giant dick about the whole thing, unfortunately. To me it was more Superman's reaction that just felt so incredibly off to his character. They had far more of a bestie relationship back then. Ideally they both would have been with her as originally planned, but Superman turning his back on her hit worse to me at the time.

It's definitely not OOC for Bruce in that era, though I have larger problems that DC ever allowed him to get to that point in the first place. All the OMAC stuff is extreme for Rucka's Batman, but even in Rucka's earlier stuff in the Bat-verse I always liked what he did with the supporting cast (particularly the women) and some of the villains (like Two-Face and Ivy) over how he wrote Bruce himself. So he had some contributions to Batjerk. But yeah, Superman's is worse in some ways. I can imagine him not having the best immediate reaction since he was mind controlled into attacking her and the first thing he sees when he comes back to himself is dead Max (plus his throat is cut). That's a lot to process. But at most I see Clark needing to cool off for a day or so and then coming around to siding with her.

I maintain that DC was right to just ignore all of Batman's behavior in IC/OMAC going forward and part of what made Morrison's run so great is that they didn't have to address all of that unspeakably stupid garbage. The main issue is that they did not do the same with Wonder Woman: it should ALL have been relegated to "we will never speak of this again" status, but instead we got "not human enough, become Diana Prince and deal with Amazons Attack"

[I'm a Fish]

I still have a funny feeling that what he really would have done if he could was have a former romance between Diana and Barbara, not Etta. I can't prove that, but the dynamic they had at the beginning of the Rebirth run just seemed filled with sexual tension. My belief is the idea was vetoed so went with a lackluster plan B.

Her first line to Diana was "And don't you go all the way to the top."

Yeah, he gets the character pretty well, I've never understood why he of all people was a WonderBat guy. For someone who comes from more of a purist standpoint, its seems like something he'd hate just as much as he hates SuperWonder. But its his preference, no matter how wrong it is. In fact this course of events could have served to really be the beginning of things, with her imprisonment leading to Superman catching on that he had feelings for her or something like that.

WonderBat was in full swing at that time, so he might have just been jumping on the bandwagon.

[SiegePerilous02]

Her first line to Diana was "And don't you go all the way to the top."

Yep that one was hard to miss lol.

I thinks he was also checking out Steve when she first met him as well.

[marhawkman]

I maintain that DC was right to just ignore all of Batman's behavior in IC/OMAC going forward and part of what made Morrison's run so great is that they didn't have to address all of that unspeakably stupid garbage. The main issue is that they did not do the same with Wonder Woman: it should ALL have been relegated to "we will never speak of this again" status, but instead we got "not human enough, become Diana Prince and deal with Amazons Attack"

Yeah, DC usually DOESN'T carry forward "guilt" like that. Part of the reason the fallout of IC was weird is that it was one-sided. but the other reason it was weird is the simple fact they bothered at all. They once did a King Superman story where https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Tuoni_(New_Earth) assumed Superman's identity and worked towards installing himself as dictator of Earth as Superman. Fallout? pretty much none. It may have gotten mentioned, but not much.

[Agent Z]

Am I remembering it wrong, but wasn't there an issue of Superman during the whole Max Lord-to-Infinite Crisis where it was suggested or even implied that deep down Clark knew he was being unfair to Diana? Really it was he felt guilty knowing she was only in this position because of him (thought it was really Bruce's fault) and taking all the blame for the sake of his reputation. Because I remember that was a big thing in the fallout where Diana refused to explain why she needed to kill Max because she didn't want anyone to know he'd been mind-controlled.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think that would've at least added some nuance and make Clark a little more sympathetic. Like, okay, he isn't being fair to Diana, but he's conflicted about it, and presumably, he would eventually realize that even if he didn't agree with killing Max, he shouldn't turn his back on her.
But like a lot of the nuance in this storyline, it got thrown out the window by the time we hit Infinite Crisis, where it just devolved into: "Diana kills and will get offended if you say she shouldn't. Superman and Batman don't approve."

Even then, I think where they really messed up was in the resolution.
They clearly wanted this situation where the Trinity is at odds with one another and no one is completely right or wrong. The problem is they wound up creating one where Wonder Woman comes across as completely in the right, while Superman and Batman--he alleged best friends--completely scumbag her. And rather than roll with that and have Clark & Bruce realize they've done her wrong and apologize, they end Infinite Crisis with everyone just kind of forgetting about it.

No...worse. They try to suggest the real issue was that Diana doesn't understand humans and needs a secret identity, which Bruce very helpfully set up for her without even being asked.
So not only did they have Superman & Batman scumbag Wonder Woman, now they're gaslighting her into thinking she was the problem all along. Home run, DC!

It's funny looking at Rucka's original pitch...a story that seemed designed to affirm Wonder Woman as a paragon of integrity and principle, and Superman and Batman as devoted allies who absolutely trust her without question even if they don't agree with her choices...and see DC turned it into a story that...I don't know about anyone else, but my takeaway from Infinite Crisis was that Clark and Bruce are terrible friends who do not deserve Diana, and she's far too nice to call them out on it.

How was Clark getting mind controlled by Max Bruce's fault?

[marhawkman]

How was Clark getting mind controlled by Max Bruce's fault?

Well the act wasn't Bruce's fault, but... Bruce had... what solution? Did he actually offer an alternative?

[Koriand'r]

Yeah, he gets the character pretty well, I've never understood why he of all people was a WonderBat guy. For someone who comes from more of a purist standpoint, its seems like something he'd hate just as much as he hates SuperWonder. But its his preference, no matter how wrong it is. In fact this course of events could have served to really be the beginning of things, with her imprisonment leading to Superman catching on that he had feelings for her or something like that.

Rucka understands Wonder Woman well but he can also see the nuances to Batman. Their union isn't a bad one when you think of how traumatized he is and how nurturing she can be. It's the princess and the billionaire, the detective and the diplomat, the realist and the idealist, there's lots to compare and contrast. The problems arise once you consider Selina, Talia and his long list of girlfriends that make Diana seem like just another notch on the Batgod's utility belt.

The fandoms are vastly different as well and Batman's family is so much broader and deeper it makes it unfair. She only has one title to work with and would have to share it with him.

[Gaius]

Rucka understands Wonder Woman well but he can also see the nuances to Batman. Their union isn't a bad one when you think of how traumatized he is and how nurturing she can be. It's the princess and the billionaire, the detective and the diplomat, the realist and the idealist, there's lots to compare and contrast. The problems arise once you consider Selina, Talia and his long list of girlfriends that make Diana seem like just another notch on the Batgod's utility belt.

The fandoms are vastly different as well and Batman's family is so much broader and deeper it makes it unfair. She only has one title to work with and would have to share it with him.

Yep, this is the whole underlying problem of the pairing.

This is true for the Superman pairing also but that also usually involves fridging Lois or as just a consolation prize until he hooks up with Lois.

[Guy_McNichts]

How was Clark getting mind controlled by Max Bruce's fault?

Max explains in detail he was able to gain such absolute control over Clark because of Brother Eye.

Who created Brother Eye?

[Agent Z]

Rucka understands Wonder Woman well but he can also see the nuances to Batman. Their union isn't a bad one when you think of how traumatized he is and how nurturing she can be. It's the princess and the billionaire, the detective and the diplomat, the realist and the idealist, there's lots to compare and contrast. The problems arise once you consider Selina, Talia and his long list of girlfriends that make Diana seem like just another notch on the Batgod's utility belt.

The fandoms are vastly different as well and Batman's family is so much broader and deeper it makes it unfair. She only has one title to work with and would have to share it with him.

That's actually a bad reason to start a romantic relationship. Diana isn't a therapist and Bruce needs counselling not a romantic partner. It makes the relationship about Bruce's emotional needs first and foremost which is a recipe for disaster.