Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[marhawkman]

Not to derail, but while I didn't really think much of her in the first Suicide Squad movie, she really grew on me in BOP and the latest Suicide Squad.

IMO Harley is only good when she has another character keeping her in check. Like Flagg and Katana did in the first Suicide Squad.

[I'm a Fish]

What do people have against DCEU Harley, btw? IMHO, she and WW are two of the only characters that they get right (well, if we ignore WW84, anyway).

I don't have any problem with Harley Quinn, but I think there's a weird misconception that she's more heroic than she actually is. It doesn't help that DC can't seem to make up their minds if she's a villain or anti-hero.

[Robanker]

Not to derail, but while I didn't really think much of her in the first Suicide Squad movie, she really grew on me in BOP and the latest Suicide Squad.

Pretty much this. She'll wantonly murder and then DC wants me to believe Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman will shake her hand afterward.

That dog won't hunt.


This is ignoring that generally DC has ignored her redemption arc and just fast tracked her to success because she was a merchandising monster at Hot Topic and that translated back into sales elsewhere. So she went from Mr. J's #1 accomplice who victimized all of Gotham and has more murders under her belt than the rest of the Bat rogues into a protagonist who we're supposed to feel bad for because she's a victim herself and that somehow forgives the thousands of lives she's directly broken or helped to shatter.

She hasn't yet earned redemption for her acts and I've yet to see a retcon that convinces me she deserves to be forgiven yet. I'm not saying she isn't a tragic figure, she absolutely is, but most villains get tragic backstories. If we found out tomorrow the Joker was definitively a victim of abuse, that wouldn't forgive his crimes. A lot of continuities show Lex being an absolute monster who was beat on relentlessly as a child. He's still a vile monster.

Dinah wouldn't be her friend. Batman wouldn't work with her. Wonder Woman wouldn't forgive her yet. Superman wouldn't spend any more time with her than absolutely necessary. NONE of them would allow her in the JLA HQ.

But she gets that pass because she's popular. She can kill, victimize and sexually harass anyone she wants and gets away with it as a result. That's why I'm unlikely to ever care for Harley Quinn at this point. I used to like her and I enjoyed that she was trying to get away from Mistah J, but after New 52 they've more or less mangled every character who interacts with her to prop her up.

Poison Ivy used to be an excellent rogue and character in her own right and she's mostly just Harley's supportive girlfriend now. She rarely gets to have stories away from Harley now. Harls has quite literally taken a strong female character who could bring Batman, Superman and the like to their knees and reduced her to a love interest that satellites the protagonist. Harley also sexually harasses PG every time she gets page time with her. Any other character would get a lot of deserved flack for doing that to female characters with established fanbases, but not Harley because #victim I guess.


Margot Robbie playing that version excellently isn't going to suddenly make me care about her-- but make no mistake, Robbie plays her excellently. Better than Gadot plays Diana, if I'm being honest.

[HestiasHearth]

To be honest, never once have I been convinced by any of the words that come out of Robbie's mouth in character as HQ, and the fact that she does a terrible [alleged] NY accent makes it even worse. Robbie is a charismatic screen presence, and a gorgeous woman...but as an actress? She leaves me totally cold (especially with her Harley).

[I'm a Fish]

I've never been big on Diana actively worshiping the Greek Gods, not if they are portrayed "in character" to their Ancient Greek depictions, anyway.

Marston portrayed the gods more as ideologies and plot-devises than actual characters, so it's easy to dodge any contradictions that could arise from Diana worshiping beings that, according to myth, often commit acts worse than the mortals she combats on the regular. Plus, Marston had a kid friendly approach to the comic that inherently waves away the more heavy themes in Greek mythology.

Perez on the other hand, went all in on the Greek myth, and to no surprise, her relationship with them is flat-out abusive.

Perez did give them a character arch to smooth things over, because unlike their classical depictions, his version of the pantheon at least apologized and made an effort to improve. Although, that in-an-of itself could be argued as not writing the Greek Gods "in character", since they never saw their actions as wrong, and there-for, never felt the need to change.

But honestly, in an accurate portrayal of the Greek gods, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't end with Diana renouncing them.

Edit: And if she does not renounce them, I think the best alterative is that she is skeptical of their motives, verbally confronts their intentions, and does not do everything they ask of her.

[Primal Slayer]

I see the Gods as Dianas version of The Watchers Council in Buffy. Starting out she allows them to run things, is maybe pro-Gods but there comes a point where she takes her power and turns her back on them knowing that they need her more than she needs them.

[PopQuezy]

I see the Gods as Dianas version of The Watchers Council in Buffy. Starting out she allows them to run things, is maybe pro-Gods but there comes a point where she takes her power and turns her back on them knowing that they need her more than she needs them.

I'm responding to both you and I'm a Fish, but I don't know how to multi-quote. Personally, I liked the way Rucka handled Diana and her relationship to the Greek Gods during Godwatch. In her relationship with Dr. Barbara Ann, she tells BA that she respects the Gods, but they do not have her trust. From the very beginning, she seems to have a respectful, yet levelheaded understanding of the Gods and their motives. I actually think this is the best way to handle the character if we accept that she's thousands of years old when she first arrives in Man's World. The type of reveal of the Gods is the disillusionment of their identity, which leads to Diana's own self-assuredness that seems like something that is inappropriate for a woman who is literally centuries years old. I think that is more suitable for a young Diana of Themyscira story.

[Jim Kelly]

I've never been big on Diana actively worshiping the Greek Gods, not if they are portrayed "in character" to their Ancient Greek depictions, anyway.

Marston portrayed the gods more as ideologies and plot-devises than actual characters, so it's easy to dodge any contradictions that could arise from Diana worshiping beings that, according to myth, often commit acts worse than the mortals she combats on the regular. Plus, Marston had a kid friendly approach to the comic that inherently waves away the more heavy themes in Greek mythology.

Perez on the other hand, went all in on the Greek myth, and to no surprise, her relationship with them is flat-out abusive.

Perez did give them a character arch to smooth things over, because unlike their classical depictions, his version of the pantheon at least apologized and made an effort to improve. Although, that in-an-of itself could be argued as not writing the Greek Gods "in character", since they never saw their actions as wrong, and there-for, never felt the need to change.

But honestly, in an accurate portrayal of the Greek gods, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't end with Diana renouncing them.

Edit: And if she does not renounce them, I think the best alterative is that she is skeptical of their motives, verbally confronts their intentions, and does not do everything they ask of her.

There are so many great stories from the Greeks and Romans--but the writers seem not to care. They use the names of the most well-known gods, but they don't bother to adhere to the myths.

However, the Amazons were never Greek. You could maybe introduce the Ancient Greek beliefs as something the Amazons learned when they were in captivity. And so they would know those stories and maybe fuse them with their own beliefs, which should be more ancient--given they come from Anatolia near the Black Sea.

Instead of Aphrodite or Venus, they should worship the primordial queen of heaven, known by many names--Inanna, Ishtar, Astarte, Ashtoreth. Someone like Menalippe/Melanippe as the High Priestess could sort all this out--explaining to her disciples the distinction between what the patriarchal Greeks believe and the actual truth revealed to her from the great divinity.

This would give the writers a free hand to change the stories to better fit the Amazons. But it wouldn't be a license to just make things up and ignore the myths completely. It seems like some people want to dump the mythology--whereas that's the thing that interests me.

If you read the actual Greek and Roman stories, they gave the gods many human aspects--so they do act in bad ways. This was during a thousand year time period--so over that time just what the gods were and how they should be understood kept changing among the faithful and the philosophers. The gods and heroes don't have to be perfect--they can be utterly terrible. The ancient world could be cruel and ugly--and the corrupt nature of god and man helps to explain why this is so for the Hellenes.

[I'm a Fish]

I'm responding to both you and I'm a Fish, but I don't know how to multi-quote.

There's a little word balloon icon to the right of the Respond With Quote button that you can check-mark for all the quote you want to respond too.

Personally, I liked the way Rucka handled Diana and her relationship to the Greek Gods during Godwatch. In her relationship with Dr. Barbara Ann, she tells BA that she respects the Gods, but they do not have her trust. From the very beginning, she seems to have a respectful, yet levelheaded understanding of the Gods and their motives. I actually think this is the best way to handle the character if we accept that she's thousands of years old when she first arrives in Man's World. The type of reveal of the Gods is the disillusionment of their identity, which leads to Diana's own self-assuredness that seems like something that is inappropriate for a woman who is literally centuries years old. I think that is more suitable for a young Diana of Themyscira story.

Rucka I think, handled Diana's faith in the Gods best.

Perez when head-first into the character drama, and to his credit, never portrayed their mistreatment of Diana as a positive. Whether it was other characters or Diana herself pointing out their toxic behavior, he made it clear when the gods were displaying unacceptable behavior.

And while both Perez and Rucka had a chance to write her origin and chose a younger Diana who openly display her religious practices (they both had her at 18, I believe). I prefer Rucka's depiction of Diana already less naïve and more openly skeptical of the Gods.

[phonogram12]

I don't have any problem with Harley Quinn, but I think there's a weird misconception that she's more heroic than she actually is. It doesn't help that DC can't seem to make up their minds if she's a villain or anti-hero.

That's completely fair. My issue is kind of similar. While I do enjoy the character, I'm not her biggest fan. And I think the reason for that is the same reason I have an issue for a lot of DC's television and film output. DC seems to want it both ways, wanting to appeal to both adults and children with the same character. I just don't think that works for most of them, but especially with what has become my favorite version of her. While I don't think she should be locked up in Arkham for ever and ever, never to be seen again, I agree with the idea that she shouldn't have regular teamups with guys like Superman and Batman. Granted, my exposure to her is (deliberately) sparing, but my favorite version of the character just does not fit in with the DCU proper. And it shouldn't. Because I really have no interest in Superman or WW crossing over into that world, either. I think it diminishes both worlds, quite frankly.

This is also the reason I have issues with both Zack Snyder's version of the DCEU and the Titans tv show. There's absolutely no reason an R rated JL movie should even exist and I just don't see the point of Dick Grayson dropping the F bomb for any other reason than shock value. They both diminish every character that's featured in them.

[John Venus]

I agree with I'm a Fish about the Greek Gods. I am not a fan of any portrayal of Zeus that tries to paint him as benevolent either. Zeus inhabits all the worst traits of a man. The ultimate WW story would be Diana beating Zeus ass for all the bullshit he's pulled.

[Agent Z]

That's completely fair. My issue is kind of similar. While I do enjoy the character, I'm not her biggest fan. And I think the reason for that is the same reason I have an issue for a lot of DC's television and film output. DC seems to want it both ways, wanting to appeal to both adults and children with the same character. I just don't think that works for most of them, but especially with what has become my favorite version of her. While I don't think she should be locked up in Arkham for ever and ever, never to be seen again, I agree with the idea that she shouldn't have regular teamups with guys like Superman and Batman. Granted, my exposure to her is (deliberately) sparing, but my favorite version of the character just does not fit in with the DCU proper. And it shouldn't. Because I really have no interest in Superman or WW crossing over into that world, either. I think it diminishes both worlds, quite frankly.

This is also the reason I have issues with both Zack Snyder's version of the DCEU and the Titans tv show. There's absolutely no reason an R rated JL movie should even exist and I just don't see the point of Dick Grayson dropping the F bomb for any other reason than shock value. They both diminish every character that's featured in them.

I'd call a WW run which has cannibalism, incest and the Amazons committing murder and slavery much more diminishing than Dick saying a swear word.

[Agent Z]

I agree with I'm a Fish about the Greek Gods. I am not a fan of any portrayal of Zeus that tries to paint him as benevolent either. Zeus inhabits all the worst traits of a man. The ultimate WW story would be Diana beating Zeus ass for all the bullshit he's pulled.

Well, there was that moment from Simone's run where she punched him out.

[PopQuezy]

There's a little word balloon icon to the right of the Respond With Quote button that you can check-mark for all the quote you want to respond too.

Thank you!

[marhawkman]

I agree with I'm a Fish about the Greek Gods. I am not a fan of any portrayal of Zeus that tries to paint him as benevolent either. Zeus inhabits all the worst traits of a man. The ultimate WW story would be Diana beating Zeus ass for all the bullshit he's pulled.

Yeah, but at the same time it's equally bad to ignore that Zeus did good stuff too