Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Gaius]

Yeah, but at the same time it's equally bad to ignore that Zeus did good stuff too

That's a small list.

[phonogram12]

I'd call a WW run which has cannibalism, incest and the Amazons committing murder and slavery much more diminishing than Dick saying a swear word.

Yeah, but Diana didn't do any of those things herself. Dick straight up murdered simple street thugs in his first appearance on the show, which is vastly out of character for nearly every other iteration of Nightwing.

As far as the Amazons were concerned, I never really had much affection for them prior, so this simply added more texture as far as I was concerned. I know your feelings on that run are never going to change, however, any more than my feelings are likely to change on WW runs that failed to entertain me.

[Robanker]

I agree with I'm a Fish about the Greek Gods. I am not a fan of any portrayal of Zeus that tries to paint him as benevolent either. Zeus inhabits all the worst traits of a man. The ultimate WW story would be Diana beating Zeus ass for all the bullshit he's pulled.

I don't understand how we can glorify a character notorious for infidelity, patricide and rape. Zues sucks. He always has. He's "might makes right" by his own actions and absolutely serves as a better antagonist than Ares.

For good or ill, Ares exists as a function of man's propensity for violence. He's war by nature. Not much he can do there. I'm not forgiving his actions, but I can't begrudge a god of war being warlike.

Zues is essentially just the patron god. Everything he does is by choice, and he's a huge asshole. He absolutely should be a villain for Diana.


And not her father.

[Alpha]

Athena transformed Arachne into a spider purely out of jealousy. Aphrodite cheated on Hephaestus countless times (and I'm sure she also did worse things than this but I'm not aware of them)

In Greek Mythology there was no such thing as good or evil, those stories were just about power dynamics. The heroes weren't admired for their "generosity" or their honor. They were admired because they were brave and talented, and for a while managed to defy the gods and achieve success.

[Tzigone]

In Greek Mythology there was no such thing as good or evil, those stories were just about power dynamics. The heroes weren't admired for their "generosity" or their honor. They were admired because they were brave and talented, and for a while managed to defy the gods and achieve success.

Reminds me of the shorthand I once heard - when talking about Greek mythology, just substitute the word "badass" for "hero."

[Alpha]

I loved those first three issue of Cloonrad when Diana was on Asgard but I've been lukewarm on the rest. I loved the preview for 778. There's so much to love there. I'm hopeful that they will get the chance to do some worldbuilding now that she's back on earth, and I hope their run becomes a success.

...but it does seem like Wonder Woman sales aren't really dependant on quality, seeing as those first three issues that were loved by the majority of readers, still didn't get great sales. I feel like there aren't many writers working at DC right now that could really bring the attention that Diana deservers as well as writing her in character. But I'm keeping my eye really close on that Tom King story in the 80th anniversary, because I feel like he might be someone that could potentially take over the book and bump up the sales.

It's true that he has a certain "style" that made him infamous and doesn't really adapt to Diana. But he has also written strong
charming stories that stand outside of the "style" and appeal to the beauty in characters. I hated the romance between Bruce and Diana in Batman #39, but aside from that, King actually wrote a really fun Diana.

[Jim Kelly]

THE ILIAD and THE ODYSSEY are believed to have been written down around the 8th century B.C. and as oral poems date back much further. THE GOLDEN ASS of Apuleius is from the 2nd centruy A.D.

Between those two dates, a lot happened. There were great shifts in philosophy and culture. At times, people wanted to believe the gods were absolutely moral--they objected to the portrait of the gods in Homer and sought to change those stories to make them fit their understanding of the universe. Many myths have several different versions to fit the outlook of the people telling the stories at the time. Expecting one thousand years of literature, stretched all across the Mediterranean, to have a consistent point of view is absurd.

[I'm a Fish]

THE ILIAD and THE ODYSSEY are believed to have been written down around the 8th century B.C. and as oral poems date back much further. THE GOLDEN ASS of Apuleius is from the 2nd centruy A.D.

Between those two dates, a lot happened. There were great shifts in philosophy and culture. At times, people wanted to believe the gods were absolutely moral--they objected to the portrait of the gods in Homer and sought to change those stories to make them fit their understanding of the universe. Many myths have several different versions to fit the outlook of the people telling the stories at the time. Expecting one thousand years of literature, stretched all across the Mediterranean, to have a consistent point of view is absurd.

My curiosity compels me to ask, what do you think Diana’s relationship with the gods should be?

[Jim Kelly]

My curiosity compels me to ask, what do you think Diana’s relationship with the gods should be?

Well, like I said before, the Amazons were never Greek and their beliefs would predate the Mycenaeans and Minoans. They would have their own pantheon but they would would associate their divinities with the later Greek versions. The Queen of Heaven would be Inanna, but the stories of Aphrodite and Venus would be attributed to her--and she'd occupy the same place as Aphrodite in the Marston stories.

Perhaps they speak Proto-Indo-European but Greek is a second language they acquired in captivity, so that's why they have some Greek names.

Zeus would not be their sky father. To them he'd be a local god of the Athenians, as would be Athena. Instead they would worship Dyaus and merciful Minerva. Generally they'd look at the Greek religion as a pathetic misunderstanding of their truth.

However, the gods and goddesses wouldn't walk around and talk to the Amazons directly. Mainly Menalippe and the oracles would communicate the wishes of the divine through riddles. I do like Rucka's having gods appear in animal form. Amazons would have visions and dreams and see auguries of the divine in nature. They'd have an animistic understanding of the world.

[wonder39]

I've never been big on Diana actively worshiping the Greek Gods, not if they are portrayed "in character" to their Ancient Greek depictions, anyway.

Marston portrayed the gods more as ideologies and plot-devises than actual characters, so it's easy to dodge any contradictions that could arise from Diana worshiping beings that, according to myth, often commit acts worse than the mortals she combats on the regular. Plus, Marston had a kid friendly approach to the comic that inherently waves away the more heavy themes in Greek mythology.

Perez on the other hand, went all in on the Greek myth, and to no surprise, her relationship with them is flat-out abusive.

Perez did give them a character arch to smooth things over, because unlike their classical depictions, his version of the pantheon at least apologized and made an effort to improve. Although, that in-an-of itself could be argued as not writing the Greek Gods "in character", since they never saw their actions as wrong, and there-for, never felt the need to change.

But honestly, in an accurate portrayal of the Greek gods, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't end with Diana renouncing them.

Edit: And if she does not renounce them, I think the best alterative is that she is skeptical of their motives, verbally confronts their intentions, and does not do everything they ask of her.

That's the thing, tho, right? These aren't the myths. Marston used them as a jumping off point, or inspiration, or whatever to create his world. The Amazons are different from those of myth. The Gods are as well. I think that's when it works best. I think the WW mythos suffers when it becomes to infused with the reality of mythology ( yeah i know that sounds goofy). Even Perez, while relying heavily on a greater tie to the myths, still maintained an in universe version of them. Athena and the Goddesses were benevolent, Heracles flawed and redeemed. The Amazons of Themyscira AND the Amazons of mythology ( the Bana)....

[I'm a Fish]

That's the thing, tho, right? These aren't the myths. Marston used them as a jumping off point, or inspiration, or whatever to create his world. The Amazons are different from those of myth. The Gods are as well. I think that's when it works best. I think the WW mythos suffers when it becomes to infused with the reality of mythology ( yeah i know that sounds goofy). Even Perez, while relying heavily on a greater tie to the myths, still maintained an in universe version of them. Athena and the Goddesses were benevolent, Heracles flawed and redeemed. The Amazons of Themyscira AND the Amazons of mythology ( the Bana)....

Just to clear up any potential misconception, I have no issue with how the Greek Gods are depicted in Marston's iteration.

The role they play in the story warps around Diana. They help create her, give her a mission, and answer her call for aid and don't ask anything of her in return; their wants and desires consistently align with Diana's. (Of course, I am mostly referring to Athena and Aphrodite).

I'm not against classical depictions of the Greek Gods in the comics either, I just don't see Diana as having blind faith in them. Or rather, I prefer Diana not have blind faith in them even at the start. Even the goddesses sided with Zeus when he forced Diana to "face judgement" and participate in a series of deadly trials.

[marhawkman]

That's a small list.

Well as has been pointed out before: the list is only small if you condense the headers. Without Zeus there would be no Humans. If not for Zeus, the Titans would still rule the world. And some other stuff like that...

[Primal Slayer]

Well as has been pointed out before: the list is only small if you condense the headers. Without Zeus there would be no Humans. If not for Zeus, the Titans would still rule the world. And some other stuff like that...

I always found it interesting that they left the creating mankind in the WW mythos. Of course its easier not to explore it because it seems messy with a world of other gods

[Agent Z]

Yeah, but Diana didn't do any of those things herself. Dick straight up murdered simple street thugs in his first appearance on the show, which is vastly out of character for nearly every other iteration of Nightwing.

As far as the Amazons were concerned, I never really had much affection for them prior, so this simply added more texture as far as I was concerned. I know your feelings on that run are never going to change, however, any more than my feelings are likely to change on WW runs that failed to entertain me.

Minor thing: Dick didn't kill them.

[Rightoya]

Yeah, but Diana didn't do any of those things herself. Dick straight up murdered simple street thugs in his first appearance on the show, which is vastly out of character for nearly every other iteration of Nightwing.

As far as the Amazons were concerned, I never really had much affection for them prior, so this simply added more texture as far as I was concerned. I know your feelings on that run are never going to change, however, any more than my feelings are likely to change on WW runs that failed to entertain me.

Azzarelo did some truly good things, but his DC Amazons are around as in character and fitting as to turn the Kents into incestuous hillbilly's, or the Wayne's into secretely human traffickers for shock value.

...but it does seem like Wonder Woman sales aren't really dependant on quality, seeing as those first three issues that were loved by the majority of readers, still didn't get great sales. I feel like there aren't many writers working at DC right now that could really bring the attention that Diana deservers as well as writing her in character. But I'm keeping my eye really close on that Tom King story in the 80th anniversary, because I feel like he might be someone that could potentially take over the book and bump up the sales.

It's true that he has a certain "style" that made him infamous and doesn't really adapt to Diana. But he has also written strong
charming stories that stand outside of the "style" and appeal to the beauty in characters. I hated the romance between Bruce and Diana in Batman #39, but aside from that, King actually wrote a really fun Diana.

It just don't works like that, there is no announcer that will tell everyone that after mostly lukewarm or disappointing runs for a long time now the first few issue of the new run are good for a change and they all need to buy it. I also doubt Wonder Woman 1984 truly helped, and there are no other movies, cartoons, or video games, and so on that could truly help announced. Even if Tom King does surprisingly great, and even more surprisingly takes over and still does great, that will have at best a temporary effect without other big changes.