Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

Dude I really don't wanna have an argument over which greek god is worse. It really doesn't feel like a fun conversation. Is it really that important to you for Zeus and Poseidon to be considered more immoral than Ares even though in the Golden Age Marston specifically chose Ares as the embodiment of toxic masculinity and wrote about how he drove men to follow their worst impulses.

And I seriously don't see how you think I'm being unreasonable when I write that "war is the ultimate form of Toxic Masculinity". Of course there are other lesser forms that we see every day, and of course there are people that go to war to defend themselves and to stop a horrifying regime, but the war of conquest and of retaliation is the most common form of war and embodies all the bad impulses of a Toxic Ideology. Why are you arguing against this?

Athena already embodies the virtuous forms of war, Ares is supposed to embody the savage form of war.

[TheRay]

Wonder Woman isn't perfect either. The mistakes she makes are usually how she's exploited by the Greek gods. I think that's where Ares comes in.

[HestiasHearth]

Athena already embodies the virtuous forms of war, Ares is supposed to embody the savage form of war.

I agree with your points 100 %.
I know that some people enjoy the Ares that is anti-heroish and poetic and "complex," but I personally find those qualities quite meh. I want Ares to be a full fledged villain. Viciously, unrepentantly, unapoletically evil. Diana will always try to see/find the good in others, but I want Ares to have absolutely zero good in his soul. He should be the one villain that will always make Diana feel frustrated at her own inability to find even a sliver of good in him. She could find some glimmer of good in Circe and Cheetah, but Ares is the god of war, the embodiment of hatred, violence, conflict and antagonism. He is literally the father or strife and discord!! He is simply the total opposite of Diana (at least in my headcanon).

[marhawkman]

Because the reasons the people fight wars are many and varied such as defending their homes or trying to overthrow a tyrannical empire. By your logic, Diana was engaging in toxic masculinity when she fought in WW2 against the Nazis in the original comics.



See the Azarello run.



This is a distinction without a difference. Zeus and Poseidon don't "need" to do any of the horrible things they do.




That's not toxic masculinity. That's just being a supervillain. And Zeus tried to do something similar in Simone's run. He was just less successful.

I have to agree here. evil+aggressive... has nothing to do with masculinity.

[Alpha]

I have to agree here. evil+aggressive... has nothing to do with masculinity.

Evil + agressive has nothing do with masculinity yes. Masculinity can exist in a healthy and respectful way. But there is also such a thing as Toxic Masculinity.

And Toxic Masculinity is what defined the Golden Age Mars/ Ares, and what I'm proposing is that we lean harder on that by taking inspiration from the rageful rottweiler type characters from shows like "The Wire" and "Sopranos".

[TheRay]

Actually no character in anything is without blood on their hands. Especially ones that have long histories.

[marhawkman]

Evil + agressive has nothing do with masculinity yes. Masculinity can exist in a healthy and respectful way. But there is also such a thing as Toxic Masculinity.

And Toxic Masculinity is what defined the Golden Age Mars/ Ares, and what I'm proposing is that we lean harder on that by taking inspiration from the rageful rottweiler type characters from shows like "The Wire" and "Sopranos".

Enh, the point I was making is that it'd be equally "toxic" if it was Athena doing the same thing. Male or not makes no difference.

[Alpha]

Enh, the point I was making is that it'd be equally "toxic" if it was Athena doing the same thing. Male or not makes no difference.

I still don't get why you're saying that. Nobody here implied the the reason why Ares is evil is because he's a man, or that the reason Athena is virtuous is because she's a woman.

[TheRay]

I definitely enjoy Ruka's work.

[marhawkman]

I still don't get why you're saying that. Nobody here implied the the reason why Ares is evil is because he's a man, or that the reason Athena is virtuous is because she's a woman.

You mean other than talking about "masculinity"?

[Alpha]

You mean other than talking about "masculinity"?

So you're problem with this discussion is that you don't think the term "Toxic Masculinity" shouldn't exist? I'm a dude and I think it's a totally legitimate way of describing a pattern of behaviour that society has demanded of men throughout time. Golden Age Mars/ Ares was created as a godly entity that wanted to spread that ideology onto every man in the galaxy.

And saying that there is toxic masculinity doesn't mean that there isn't healthy masculinity. It's like blueberries. Some of them can be poisonous while others can be delicious and great for your body. Avoid the bad type and embrace the good one

[marhawkman]

So you're problem with this discussion is that you don't think the term "Toxic Masculinity" shouldn't exist? I'm a dude and I think it's a totally legitimate way of describing a pattern of behaviour that society has demanded of men throughout time. Golden Age Mars/ Ares was created as a godly entity that wanted to spread that ideology onto every man in the galaxy.

And saying that there is toxic masculinity doesn't mean that there isn't healthy masculinity. It's like blueberries. Some of them can be poisonous while others can be delicious and great for your body. Avoid the bad type and embrace the good one

Ok, now apply that thought process to Athena.

[Nyssane]

Ok, now apply that thought process to Athena.

I'm not sure what this argument is, but the key difference is that Ares is traditionally a villain in the Wonderverse and Athena isn't.

[Alpha]

Ok, now apply that thought process to Athena.

Hum, Athena embodying the virtues of war is part of both mythology and comics.If you think it's sexist then just look at Hera. She is usually one of the most conniving and sadistic gods.

[TheRay]

So that means I also love Azzarello