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  1. #4936
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    And unlike with the aforementioned, or Superman, DCAU Wonder Woman didn't really have any other significant or consistently good stuff to balance out the schoolgirl crush. Which doesn't help "WonderBat" when probably 95% or more support for that ship is because of that show.
    Agreed, and every reference to Wonder Bat post-2005 probably was in some way, shape, or form inspired by DCAU. I can't imagine too many people would be citing the JLA run as why they love that pairing.

    Also, I don't remember who released the idea of Wonder Bat for public consumption first, the DCAU or the JLA comics, so who knows if one source influenced the other, or vice-versa. Still, I'm of the opinion that DCAU would've gone in that direction whether or not Joe Kelly wrote it into his run.

  2. #4937

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGA View Post
    I'm not a fan of either the Superman-Wonder Woman or Batman-Wonder Woman.

    I mean Superman has been connected with Lois Lane for quite a while. It just is wrong
    on so many levels. If you want to make it an elsewhere, I suppose meh well whatever.
    But the Batman pairing is even worse, it is hard to see how the personalities connect in any real way.
    It feels like someone's fan fiction, that well we can do this as an intellectual exercise.

    What troubles me about DC's female heroes is this tendency to just pair them off.
    Barbara Gordon has suffered from that for years. You would think that Diana would be immune,
    but not so.
    Yeah, once a DC female heroine gets into a relationship, the entire sum of their character will revolve around said relationship (Black Canary, Zatanna, Barbara Gordon). As WW84 shows, just pairing her with Steve doesn't solve the problem. Whether Diana is paired with Steve, Batman or Superman, the relationship just needs to be written better.

  3. #4938

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Do we have much actual examples of that combo though? When they started teasing them together in the comics, Bruce had (unfortunately) long moved past his Bronze Age self. And in the DCAU, they got Diana's character wrong in several ways and by that point, DCAU Bruce resembled his then-current comic self more than the bronze age (albeit, still much more tame and likeable).

    Alan Moore's "think clean thoughts, chum" moment was pretty cute if it can be taken as an indicator that they hooked up on occasion. But that would be the extent of what I'd want out of them, just a few casual hook ups but nothing serious.
    They teamed up several times in the 80's Brave and the Bold comics wherein they were both treated with respect.

  4. #4939

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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Also, I don't remember who released the idea of Wonder Bat for public consumption first, the DCAU or the JLA comics, so who knows if one source influenced the other, or vice-versa. Still, I'm of the opinion that DCAU would've gone in that direction whether or not Joe Kelly wrote it into his run.
    I believe Kelly did it in JLA first. I also remember it wasn't well-received either then either. Forums I saw derided is as forced and out of character for both of them. Plus, it happened while Hush was going on in Batman's title, so everyone wondered why his thing with Catwoman wasn't being acknowledged.

    For what it's worth, at least Kelly played it as they were mutually attracted and considered giving a shot. It was still contrived and lame, but that's more respectful of Diana than having her form a school-girl crush on the coolest guy in the room.

  5. #4940
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Everyone has the one friend with the wrong opinion.
    Well so long as it’s just the one

  6. #4941
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    hmmm so how controversial is the idea that Barbara hooking up with Snapper Carr was actually a GOOD idea?

    I honestly liked it. it kind of answers the question of what she does when not killing people.

    Also there's another question.... What does Urzkartaga WANT Barbara to use the power of the Cheetah for?

  7. #4942

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    -Rucka's pre-Rebirth was very OOC. It read more like an author's barely disguised fetish rather than an actual story. Imagine of Mr Freeze or Lex Luthor acting exactly the way Barbara does in the story and you would realize how OOC it was. I tend to head canon Rucka's Cheetah as Deborah Domaine filling in for Barbara Minerva while she is off doing other stuff.

    -Barbara is an archaeologist, implied to be filthy rich and crippled in her human form. Not hard to guess what she does in her off time.

    -Uzkartaga wants a bride. The Cheetahs are basically his harem.

  8. #4943
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    It's funny people always bring up Rucka's pre-Rebirth Cheetah when comparing it to is Rebirth attempt. I read his run through the most recent trade collections which doesn't have collect that stuff and Cheetah's only appearence there is the Flash crossover and the U.N. trial post-neck snap.

    So I had no context for what people were talking about whenever they bring it up.

  9. #4944
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    It's funny people always bring up Rucka's pre-Rebirth Cheetah when comparing it to is Rebirth attempt. I read his run through the most recent trade collections which doesn't have collect that stuff and Cheetah's only appearence there is the Flash crossover and the U.N. trial post-neck snap.

    So I had no context for what people were talking about whenever they bring it up.
    Yeah. When I think of Rucka's WW, Cale is her arch enemy. His Cheetah is not particularly great as a villain per se.
    I like Cale, but trying to make Diana's big bad a distaff Lex Luthor is not a great look.


    To be honest, I don't like how he writes Diana in Bruce's satellite just about ever. Yes, that includes the Hiketeia. Especially in recent years, every time Rucka brings up Gotham I start shedding interest. That was the Lois Lane book's death knell, and it always turns into WonderBat fanfic. He's unable to have Diana look at Bruce the same way she would look at anyone else who pulls his bullshit.

    Especially given that he seemingly spends so much time planning on killing his best friend "just in case."
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-09-2021 at 10:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  10. #4945
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    -Rucka's pre-Rebirth was very OOC. It read more like an author's barely disguised fetish rather than an actual story. Imagine of Mr Freeze or Lex Luthor acting exactly the way Barbara does in the story and you would realize how OOC it was. I tend to head canon Rucka's Cheetah as Deborah Domaine filling in for Barbara Minerva while she is off doing other stuff.

    -Barbara is an archaeologist, implied to be filthy rich and crippled in her human form. Not hard to guess what she does in her off time.

    -Uzkartaga wants a bride. The Cheetahs are basically his harem.
    Hah, Mr. Freeze is very motivated in many incarnations by love though. However, it's not a wild passion sort of love, but rather a love so ingrained into his being that it guides his actions even when he's not thinking about it. Would he do what Snapper did if he could?... I'd guess yes.

    Comparing Cheetah to Lex... is... a strange choice since they don't act in ways even vaguely similar at all... ever....

    Also... have we ever seen someone as the bride... at all... ever? how does that even work?
    Last edited by marhawkman; 12-09-2021 at 11:17 AM.

  11. #4946
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah. When I think of Rucka's WW, Cale is her arch enemy. His Cheetah is not particularly great as a villain per se.
    I like Cale, but trying to make Diana's big bad a distaff Lex Luthor is not a great look.


    To be honest, I don't like how he writes Diana in Bruce's satellite just about ever. Yes, that includes the Hiketeia. Especially in recent years, every time Rucka brings up Gotham I start shedding interest. That was the Lois Lane book's death knell, and it always turns into WonderBat fanfic. He's unable to have Diana look at Bruce the same way she would look at anyone else who pulls his bullshit.

    Especially given that he seemingly spends so much time planning on killing his best friend "just in case."
    I wasn't really bothered by Cale in his first run (even though, I agree with others she's better in his second run) as I think "female CEO/She-Lex" is actually a good villain niche for WW. Though yes, I agree she's behind Circe and Barbara in my rankings.

    I'll admit I don't have much of a gauge for Rucka's Batman. I've never read his Batman/Gotham stuff, so I only know him from whenever he pops up in his WW stuff. Hiketeia I'd say is something of an outlier as he's intentionally written as an antagonistic foil for Diana (similar to Clark in DKR), though yes re-reading his run I did see some WW/BM hints whenever Bruce popped up.

    Probably not a coincidence I think his Blackest Night mini is the worst thing he's written when it comes to WW, aside from Sacrifice.

  12. #4947
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    All versions of the lasso of truth are great.

  13. #4948
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    I'm still not a fan of the neck snap (*gasp!*), but I do think Max Lord makes for a great WW villain. While his power is just getting people to do what he wants, he's probably better than just about anybody at lying. And who better to have as an adversary than the Goddess of Truth?
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  14. #4949
    Mighty Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    My personal WTF at Max Lord being shoehorned into anti-Wonder Woman villainy is that Diana already has a great villain who can make people do what he wants: Dr. Psycho. Why not give all the attention Lord got to a villain who has an actual history of enmity with Diana?

  15. #4950

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I wasn't really bothered by Cale in his first run (even though, I agree with others she's better in his second run) as I think "female CEO/She-Lex" is actually a good villain niche for WW. Though yes, I agree she's behind Circe and Barbara in my rankings.

    I'll admit I don't have much of a gauge for Rucka's Batman. I've never read his Batman/Gotham stuff, so I only know him from whenever he pops up in his WW stuff. Hiketeia I'd say is something of an outlier as he's intentionally written as an antagonistic foil for Diana (similar to Clark in DKR), though yes re-reading his run I did see some WW/BM hints whenever Bruce popped up.

    Probably not a coincidence I think his Blackest Night mini is the worst thing he's written when it comes to WW, aside from Sacrifice.
    I like the idea of a corporate villain for Diana. Just not for Veronica to be Diana's main archenemy and taking shine away from characters like Cheetah and Circe who are more fitting for that role. I think most of us agreed in one of the other threads that Cheetah is the one that Diana has a personal feud with while Ares and Circe are enemies of the entire Amazons.

    It's been a few years since I read Rucka's Batman run. He had written some good one shots but he also had a tendency to write a really dickish and extremely unlikable version of Batman/Bruce Wayne at the time. I enjoyed Hiketia for his depiction of Diana, not so much of his depiction of Bruce Wayne in it.

    That said, he was the last person I expected to be a WonderBat shipper.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I'm still not a fan of the neck snap (*gasp!*), but I do think Max Lord makes for a great WW villain. While his power is just getting people to do what he wants, he's probably better than just about anybody at lying. And who better to have as an adversary than the Goddess of Truth?
    The thing is, they derailed and rewrote Max Lord's entire character to make him a WW villain. Prior to Sacrifice, he was a guy you were initially lead to believe was a skeevy suit only out of himself only to later learn that he was a jerk with a heart of gold. Turning him into a chessmaster who murders his friends and mind control Superman into attacking Diana was very OOC for his character. Imagine if they had done something similar with Etta or Steve Trevor "I was only pretending to be your friend this whole time!", then *boom* shoots Sigfried in the head and proceeds to mind control Superman into attacking WW. It would be the same level of OOC for them as it was for Max Lord.

    Plus if you are going to have someone be Diana's first kill, it should be someone from her Rogues Gallery, not a character from a period of JL that she was barely involved in.

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