Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Gaius]

My personal WTF at Max Lord being shoehorned into anti-Wonder Woman villainy is that Diana already has a great villain who can make people do what he wants: Dr. Psycho. Why not give all the attention Lord got to a villain who has an actual history of enmity with Diana?

This and Sacrifice/Infinite Crisis pretty much derailing Wonder Woman's book for years along with it being used by certain knuckle-draggers to go "Diana is such a violent killer" is why Lord has no business in anything WW-related.

I also never read JLI, or any of prior appearances, so him being a good guy turned bad means nothing to me.

Saying he should stick around because that book/moment was "important" is like saying every Cassandra Cain story should be about dealing with her poorly-received heel turn, Stephanie Brown's stories should be entirely about War Games, or Hal Jordan should be turned to Parallax in his next movie appearance.

I like the idea of a corporate villain for Diana. Just not for Veronica to be Diana's main archenemy and taking shine away from characters like Cheetah and Circe who are more fitting for that role. I think most of us agreed in one of the other threads that Cheetah is the one that Diana has a personal feud with while Ares and Circe are enemies of the entire Amazons.

It's been a few years since I read Rucka's Batman run. He had written some good one shots but he also had a tendency to write a really dickish and extremely unlikable version of Batman/Bruce Wayne at the time. I enjoyed Hiketia for his depiction of Diana, not so much of his depiction of Bruce Wayne in it.

That said, he was the last person I expected to be a WonderBat shipper.

I'm not sure how much he actually ships it beyond he just likes the basic setup of "superpowered woman/non-powered male", which was pretty much what he did with Steve in his Rebirth run (who was off the table in Rucka's first run).

There's also a panel in that run where Diana explicitly says she's not looking for a boyfriend/girlfriend, so I don't think Rucka was wholly interested in romance in his first run.

[Robanker]

I wasn't really bothered by Cale in his first run (even though, I agree with others she's better in his second run) as I think "female CEO/She-Lex" is actually a good villain niche for WW. Though yes, I agree she's behind Circe and Barbara in my rankings.

I'll admit I don't have much of a gauge for Rucka's Batman. I've never read his Batman/Gotham stuff, so I only know him from whenever he pops up in his WW stuff. Hiketeia I'd say is something of an outlier as he's intentionally written as an antagonistic foil for Diana (similar to Clark in DKR), though yes re-reading his run I did see some WW/BM hints whenever Bruce popped up.

Probably not a coincidence I think his Blackest Night mini is the worst thing he's written when it comes to WW, aside from Sacrifice.

Oh, she needed a CEO type. Cale is in my top 5 wonder villains with Circe, Cheetah, Giganta and Dr. Psycho. I just don't think she should be the primary antagonist, but both Rucka's runs trend that way if memory serves. She's kind of the arc villain, though admittedly my memory of the first is hazy which itself warrants a reread.

The Blackest Night mini is beautiful, beautiful garbage. Nicola deserved better.


As for Max Lord, aside from a fun but hammy performance from Pascal (and a decent meme), Lord has yet to prove he's anything short of a tumor on the Wonder Books.

Rejoice, though. He's directed elsewhere for a few months so Diana can get a reprieve... For now.

[phonogram12]

The thing is, they derailed and rewrote Max Lord's entire character to make him a WW villain. Prior to Sacrifice, he was a guy you were initially lead to believe was a skeevy suit only out of himself only to later learn that he was a jerk with a heart of gold. Turning him into a chessmaster who murders his friends and mind control Superman into attacking Diana was very OOC for his character. Imagine if they had done something similar with Etta or Steve Trevor "I was only pretending to be your friend this whole time!", then *boom* shoots Sigfried in the head and proceeds to mind control Superman into attacking WW. It would be the same level of OOC for them as it was for Max Lord.

Well, imho, it was really the most interesting thing they really did with Max Lord. And I personally really don't feel that Lord is anywhere near as sacred as Etta or Steve.

Plus if you are going to have someone be Diana's first kill, it should be someone from her Rogues Gallery, not a character from a period of JL that she was barely involved in.[/QUOTE]

[phonogram12]

My personal WTF at Max Lord being shoehorned into anti-Wonder Woman villainy is that Diana already has a great villain who can make people do what he wants: Dr. Psycho. Why not give all the attention Lord got to a villain who has an actual history of enmity with Diana?

Well, it was clearly just to fit into the big crossover at the time, but you have a good point.

[marhawkman]

Well, imho, it was really the most interesting thing they really did with Max Lord. And I personally really don't feel that Lord is anywhere near as sacred as Etta or Steve.

Plus if you are going to have someone be Diana's first kill, it should be someone from her Rogues Gallery, not a character from a period of JL that she was barely involved in.

This... that Max Lord story was about his descent into villainy.... plan A wasn't even for WW to be the one to end it.(or so I heard) To me the stupid part was how they made a big deal out of it for so long. That didn't make sense in-universe.

Extra controversial:
The Max Lord neck snap would have been more satisfying if Wonder Woman had to fight this person to do it:

[John Venus]

Well, imho, it was really the most interesting thing they really did with Max Lord. And I personally really don't feel that Lord is anywhere near as sacred as Etta or Steve.

A lot of folks are still dismayed and upset over the butchering of Maxwell Lord for the sake of an editorially driven event.

And dividing characters based on which one is sacrosanct and which isn't can be a slippery slope since that can be a heavily subjective topic. Steve and Etta were basically written out of WW's book for almost 30 years until the Nu52 and Rebirth came out.

And no offense just because Max is not your fave doesn't mean fans have to put up with his character getting derailed. DC can still do their story where Diana has to kill an opponent in order to save the day, it just has to be someone other than Maxwell Lord.

[marhawkman]

A lot of folks are still dismayed and upset over the butchering of Maxwell Lord for the sake of an editorially driven event.

And dividing characters based on which one is sacrosanct and which isn't can be a slippery slope since that can be a heavily subjective topic. Steve and Etta were basically written out of WW's book for almost 30 years until the Nu52 and Rebirth came out.

And no offense just because Max is not your fave doesn't mean fans have to put up with his character getting derailed. DC can still do their story where Diana has to kill an opponent in order to save the day, it just has to be someone other than Maxwell Lord.

*points at Divine*
Like I said before, it's not that they did character assassination in a WW story... it's that WW got involved in a Max Lord story.

I really wanna see WW fight Divine now. that sounds like a fun fight.

[Koriand'r]

I'm still not a fan of the neck snap (*gasp!*), but I do think Max Lord makes for a great WW villain. While his power is just getting people to do what he wants, he's probably better than just about anybody at lying. And who better to have as an adversary than the Goddess of Truth?

I don't hate him as a WW villain he just overlaps too much with Dr. Psycho who I feel is better. He should be Psycho's acolyte or jr. accomplice and that would make him work for me. So would actually calling him the Duke of Deception which he is more or less except for the name.

[Agent Z]

I feel like when it comes to Max, people confuse infamy with quality. Notably, Rucka didn't even want to use him from what I heard and he isn't even the first villain Diana has killed.

[marhawkman]

I feel like when it comes to Max, people confuse infamy with quality. Notably, Rucka didn't even want to use him from what I heard and he isn't even the first villain Diana has killed.

Yeah, really. what made it infamous was how they(especially Bat-Psycho) kept talking about it in-universe. It's like... why?!?!?!

[Primal Slayer]

I think the major difference between Lord and Psycho is that Psycho can never "fit" into the everyday life of Diana and the public would have more sympathy for a Maxwell Lord (unless of course Psycho puts on a disguise). Psycho is more of an annoying fly in Diana's life.

[Guy_McNichts]

However one feels about Sacrifice and the use of Max in that story, it's pointless to continue bringing him back as a WW rogue. The meat of Sacrifice was the fallout between Diana, Superman & Batman. The only reason to reference it again in current/future stories is to rekindle the tension it created between the Trinity.

Max, if you get down to it, was incidental. So no one cares about him reappearing to go: "Remember when you killed me, Diana? Ooga-booga!" The only point to drag that story out of mothballs is to go: "Hey, remember that time Superman & Batman scum-bagged Wonder Woman? What dicks."

If you're not going to do anything with that, then there's even less point in beating this horse any more.

And as others have said, it's only referenced now to prove Wonder Woman kills. Problem there is most people who do that ignore all the context and nuance Greg Rucka had established for it.

[Koriand'r]

I think the major difference between Lord and Psycho is that Psycho can never "fit" into the everyday life of Diana and the public would have more sympathy for a Maxwell Lord (unless of course Psycho puts on a disguise). Psycho is more of an annoying fly in Diana's life.

I'd really like it if Maxwell Lord was entirely Dr. Psycho's "Captain Wonder". Maxwell Lord is the persona Psycho created years ago...the rich, tall, handsome face he puts on to navigate the world as a "normal" person.

[marhawkman]

However one feels about Sacrifice and the use of Max in that story, it's pointless to continue bringing him back as a WW rogue. The meat of Sacrifice was the fallout between Diana, Superman & Batman. The only reason to reference it again in current/future stories is to rekindle the tension it created between the Trinity.

Max, if you get down to it, was incidental. So no one cares about him reappearing to go: "Remember when you killed me, Diana? Ooga-booga!" The only point to drag that story out of mothballs is to go: "Hey, remember that time Superman & Batman scum-bagged Wonder Woman? What dicks."

If you're not going to do anything with that, then there's even less point in beating this horse any more.

And as others have said, it's only referenced now to prove Wonder Woman kills. Problem there is most people who do that ignore all the context and nuance Greg Rucka had established for it.

Also... this wasn't even the worst thing Lord has ever done! Yeah.....

There's a very specific reason I keep mentioning Divine...

Yeah Lord cloned Powergirl, and programmed the clone to be his loyal lackey.

[John Venus]

I said in another thread that Snapper Carr would have made more sense as the big villain of Sacrifice. Part of the impact of Sacrifice it was somebody that everybody kind of knew, who did something horrible, turned allies against each other and Diana had to do the unthinkable to save the day.

Though if I had to fix the mess that they've made of Maxwell Lord, I would just the Max in Sacrifice was a clone of the original created by Pyscho and Image Maker in an attempt to discredit WW. They also hired Professor Zoom to plant thoughts in old Max's head in an attempt to make their 'retcon' stick.

The other explanation would be the Kilg%re virus in his body manipulating him into becoming a villain and creating a new body for him. But a backup of the original Max exists then he gets a new body and goes onto recreate the JLI as sort of 'Heroes for Hire' group 'the heroes a common man could call upon'. Evil Max is still around with original Max trying to clear his name.