Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[SiegePerilous02]

I know people on twitter are like 'no one cares that there are x amount robins/supermans/spidermans/etc...' and a lot of that is to blame on racist idiots causing a ruckus. But like they really can't give these character's different names, having 3 wondergirls is a problem to me. Even more so knowing how they've been casted aside and mistreated over the decades. In agreeance that Donna frankly shouldn't have been or stayed dead tbh. Between Donna, Cassie, and Yara I really only like Cassie, and was because of her attitude which is gone now and in its stead is batfam wannabe investigator. Yara needs a total rehaul, and Donna.... she was always a Diana clone to me, in every way.

For once we agree on something. I hate the sharing of names. I only need one of each, let everyone have their own unique identity both out of costume and in.

It's a case by case basis with me. I think the Flash works much better as a legacy with a full Flash family. But then we get two Supermen, three Wonder Girls, 6-8 Earth related GLs before we even get to Alan and his kids, etc and it all gets to be too crowded.

Donna is my favorite Wonder Girl just on the basis of being so good in the Perez NTT issues, plus she's connected to Dick. She's a mess the rest of the time. But while I used to be neutral on the Kapatelis women, I like them more and more on re-reads. Like Gaius said, Vanessa in that run is a better written character even without being a Wonder Girl than the actual Wonder Girls

[Frontier]

I mean, I think the Wonder Girls haven't always (and never consistently) used well in actual WW runs but I think the concept and the character dynamics can work and the characters are fairly distinct when you look at their histories/personalities.

It's just a matter of actually doing (good) stuff with them.

Like if anyone wants a frame of reference for how to use Donna in a WW run I'd look at Jimenez and Simone.

[marhawkman]

I mean, I think the Wonder Girls haven't always (and never consistently) used well in actual WW runs but I think the concept and the character dynamics can work and the characters are fairly distinct when you look at their histories/personalities.

It's just a matter of actually doing (good) stuff with them.

Like if anyone wants a frame of reference for how to use Donna in a WW run I'd look at Jimenez and Simone.

I think part of this is just not using WW as a mentor in stories often enough. :/ How many comics do you see Gotham, or Metropolis, or Smallville? LOADS! how many do you see Paradise Island?

[Gaius]

There is value in Legacy characters like with Flash or the Shazam Family but the real reason DC and Marvel going on them is because comic buying audiences have repeatedly shown they are un-interested in new characters with no nostalgic/legacy title.

That said, yes. I'm not interested in WW as a legacy title. Historia is currently doing far more to make Hippolyta someone Diana would lookup to than having her run around with the JSA or having been on some "B.C. Justice League" could.

I mean, I think the Wonder Girls haven't always (and never consistently) used well in actual WW runs but I think the concept and the character dynamics can work and the characters are fairly distinct when you look at their histories/personalities.

It's just a matter of actually doing (good) stuff with them.

Like if anyone wants a frame of reference for how to use Donna in a WW run I'd look at Jimenez and Simone.

The problem is there isn't much history of them actually being in WW to necessitate their use. Like I said, Donna was barely in WW comics prior to COIE so it's why I don't really get up in arms over Perez's reboot not really considering the character in his run. Especially since there was an actual character there (Vanessa) that actually showed the influence Diana could have on a young girl from Man's World.

And like I brought up with Cassie, she started life as a Vanessa clone after her creator opted to kick out Vanessa and Julia in favor of his knockoffs. This all gets into opinion of course, even with all that I found the writers like Jimenez and Rucka building on this in-universe with the Silver Swan and Vanessa's feelings of abandonment storyline more interesting than what's been done with Cassie for the most part. Whose mainly been a YJ character defined by her relationship with Superboy, aside from a few interesting nuggets of her relationship with Ares.

[Frontier]

There is value in Legacy characters like with Flash or the Shazam Family but the real reason DC and Marvel going on them is because comic buying audiences have repeatedly shown they are un-interested in new characters with no nostalgic/legacy title.

That said, yes. I'm not interested in WW as a legacy title. Historia is currently doing far more to make Hippolyta someone Diana would lookup to than having her run around with the JSA or having been on some "B.C. Justice League" could.



The problem is there isn't much history of them actually being in WW to necessitate their use. Like I said, Donna was barely in WW comics prior to COIE so it's why I don't really get up in arms over Perez's reboot not really considering the character in his run. Especially since there was an actual character there (Vanessa) that actually showed the influence Diana could have on a young girl from Man's World.

And like I brought up with Cassie, she started life as a Vanessa clone after her creator opted to kick out Vanessa and Julia in favor of his knockoffs. This all gets into opinion of course, even with all that I found the writers like Jimenez and Rucka building on this in-universe with the Silver Swan and Vanessa's feelings of abandonment storyline more interesting than what's been done with Cassie for the most part. Whose mainly been a YJ character defined by her relationship with Superboy, aside from a few interesting nuggets of her relationship with Ares.

I guess to me it's that I just don't see why Wonder Woman can't have costumed sidekicks/protege's like other major DC heroes have.

I'm not saying they've always been handled well or with anywhere near the consistency, but conceptually I think they can work and we've seen glimmers of that in the comics. The stuff with Donna in the Jimenez run isn't something you could really do with another character in my opinion and that only works because she's, well, Donna.

I also think Cassie grew into a very different character from Vanessa for a variety of reasons, especially watching all her relationships (beyond Superboy) that played out in Young Justice. Like her friendship with Arrowette.

[Perseus]

I ultimately believe that a few 'wonder fam' characters need to go. We have a very long list of characters and ONE title book with the occasional one and done stories. I think with Vanessa, her arch as Silver Swan was so well done or can be very well done that after, she should just be in rehab with Diana working as her assistant or something in the embassy. And like Helena would come back with a vengeance against Diana and be a true adult villain type not a manipulated teenager. Cassie, like I said, had that hotheaded 'in your face' attitude with spunk and moxxi that I liked in her archetype character. She frankly should be in her early 20s and attending college, I think a lot of reader old and new would find that relatable, it would also branch her out as the POV character we follow mostly in whatever city DC decides Diana is operating in at the time. Forget her being Zeus's daughter and go with Ares, makes things more interesting and we'll see more of our War God. I actually like Donna as a martyr tbh, a sort of inspirational but sad tale, statue and everything on Themyscira, wish it wasn't to a Superman robot.... but work with what you got. Yara NEEDS an overhaul, she should be the main contact with the Equiseta, but she should earn that champion title, which she hasn't to me. I also feel like she stole some of Cassie's moxxi but hey that's me.

Stop with the guest stars and appearances of other non-wonder characters, focus on them as individuals before a JL replacement, and think it would help build a solid ground moving forward.

[SiegePerilous02]

That said, yes. I'm not interested in WW as a legacy title. Historia is currently doing far more to make Hippolyta someone Diana would lookup to than having her run around with the JSA or having been on some "B.C. Justice League" could.

Historia is proving that the Hippolyta and the Amazons don't have to bear the title of "Wonder Woman" with the iconic costume and fight alongside the JSA to be epic heroes that create a legacy Diana inherits.

The problem is there isn't much history of them actually being in WW to necessitate their use. Like I said, Donna was barely in WW comics prior to COIE so it's why I don't really get up in arms over Perez's reboot not really considering the character in his run. Especially since there was an actual character there (Vanessa) that actually showed the influence Diana could have on a young girl from Man's World.

I can see that approach when looking at the WW franchise first and foremost. But as much as I rag on the the Titans brand and what DC does with it, Perez's NTT era is overall pretty great and what made Donna such a solid character in that run was her simple connection to Wonder Woman and the Amazons. She may not have had a presence in Diana's book, but Diana and Hippolyta had a presence in hers back when it was good, and it resulted in good stories. We can probably credit NTT with making the Amazons warriors we could take seriously again. My main resentment towards the placement of Perez's WW in the DC timeline is that it renders a great single issue like "Who is Donna Troy?" partially unusable, erases the fun Amazons vs. Titans of Myth stories and gets rid of the great moments Donna had with Diana and Hippolyta at her wedding.

Plus, it seems like kind of a waste to not take advantage of the potential of Donna and Vanessa interacting while they are the same age. Vanessa may be a teenage girl from Man's World, but Donna is an Amazon growing up with the knowledge that she's originally from Man's World and has family out there somewhere. Vanessa aspires to be a social climber and enjoys the notoriety of being associated with the world famous Wonder Woman (at least at first). Donna could potentially struggle with the spotlight and want a more ordinary life that Vanessa has and doesn't fully appreciate, and we could get some interesting interactions with her and Eileen and Lucy.

And like I brought up with Cassie, she started life as a Vanessa clone after her creator opted to kick out Vanessa and Julia in favor of his knockoffs. This all gets into opinion of course, even with all that I found the writers like Jimenez and Rucka building on this in-universe with the Silver Swan and Vanessa's feelings of abandonment storyline more interesting than what's been done with Cassie for the most part. Whose mainly been a YJ character defined by her relationship with Superboy, aside from a few interesting nuggets of her relationship with Ares.

To Cassie's credit, Jimenez's use of Vanessa wouldn't have quite landed as well if she hadn't been "replaced" by Cassie and we got how they bounced off of each other. But I do agree that Vanessa's arc is the more interesting out of the two across Jimenez and Rucka. The most I've read of Cassie is across Jimenez, Rucka, Simone and Johns on TT, and I can't say she's ever wowed me. But I'm mostly "meh" on her whole generation (though I can easily believe Johns got her all wrong).

[Psy-lock]

Vanessa is an unofficial Wonder Girl as far as I'm concerned. She's like the Jason Todd of the family. Too bad she's been ruined almost as badly as Donna and Cassie at this point.

[marhawkman]

I can see that approach when looking at the WW franchise first and foremost. But as much as I rag on the the Titans brand and what DC does with it, Perez's NTT era is overall pretty great and what made Donna such a solid character in that run was her simple connection to Wonder Woman and the Amazons. She may not have had a presence in Diana's book, but Diana and Hippolyta had a presence in hers back when it was good, and it resulted in good stories. We can probably credit NTT with making the Amazons warriors we could take seriously again. My main resentment towards the placement of Perez's WW in the DC timeline is that it renders a great single issue like "Who is Donna Troy?" partially unusable, erases the fun Amazons vs. Titans of Myth stories and gets rid of the great moments Donna had with Diana and Hippolyta at her wedding.

And then people use Deva in stories even after this. It's like wait... but... Diana's now a Demi-goddess, when/why did Cronus create Deva?!?!?

[Gaius]

I can see that approach when looking at the WW franchise first and foremost. But as much as I rag on the the Titans brand and what DC does with it, Perez's NTT era is overall pretty great and what made Donna such a solid character in that run was her simple connection to Wonder Woman and the Amazons. She may not have had a presence in Diana's book, but Diana and Hippolyta had a presence in hers back when it was good, and it resulted in good stories. We can probably credit NTT with making the Amazons warriors we could take seriously again. My main resentment towards the placement of Perez's WW in the DC timeline is that it renders a great single issue like "Who is Donna Troy?" partially unusable, erases the fun Amazons vs. Titans of Myth stories and gets rid of the great moments Donna had with Diana and Hippolyta at her wedding.

Plus, it seems like kind of a waste to not take advantage of the potential of Donna and Vanessa interacting while they are the same age. Vanessa may be a teenage girl from Man's World, but Donna is an Amazon growing up with the knowledge that she's originally from Man's World and has family out there somewhere. Vanessa aspires to be a social climber and enjoys the notoriety of being associated with the world famous Wonder Woman (at least at first). Donna could potentially struggle with the spotlight and want a more ordinary life that Vanessa has and doesn't fully appreciate, and we could get some interesting interactions with her and Eileen and Lucy.

That's fair, I didn't start reading Perez's WW until when DC started putting out the new omnibuses/trades in the mid-2010s and since most of that run can be read without regard towards the rest oft the DC universe at the 80s in that time is probably why I have differing opinions to other fans when it comes to how much it "screwed up" continuity.

Vanessa is an unofficial Wonder Girl as far as I'm concerned. She's like the Jason Todd of the family. Too bad she's been ruined almost as badly as Donna and Cassie at this point.

Yes. The new version of Vanessa is a pale imitation.

[Agent Z]

I ultimately believe that a few 'wonder fam' characters need to go. We have a very long list of characters and ONE title book with the occasional one and done stories. I think with Vanessa, her arch as Silver Swan was so well done or can be very well done that after, she should just be in rehab with Diana working as her assistant or something in the embassy. And like Helena would come back with a vengeance against Diana and be a true adult villain type not a manipulated teenager. Cassie, like I said, had that hotheaded 'in your face' attitude with spunk and moxxi that I liked in her archetype character. She frankly should be in her early 20s and attending college, I think a lot of reader old and new would find that relatable, it would also branch her out as the POV character we follow mostly in whatever city DC decides Diana is operating in at the time. Forget her being Zeus's daughter and go with Ares, makes things more interesting and we'll see more of our War God. I actually like Donna as a martyr tbh, a sort of inspirational but sad tale, statue and everything on Themyscira, wish it wasn't to a Superman robot.... but work with what you got. Yara NEEDS an overhaul, she should be the main contact with the Equiseta, but she should earn that champion title, which she hasn't to me. I also feel like she stole some of Cassie's moxxi but hey that's me.

Stop with the guest stars and appearances of other non-wonder characters, focus on them as individuals before a JL replacement, and think it would help build a solid ground moving forward.

We barely have a Wonder Woman family to begin with. Vanessa doesn't count as a member and the Wonder Girls barely appears in Diana's actual comics. I don't see what need there is to get rid of anyone when the usual criticisms people have about extended superhero families doesn't even apply to Wonder Woman.

[SiegePerilous02]

That's fair, I didn't start reading Perez's WW until when DC started putting out the new omnibuses/trades in the mid-2010s and since most of that run can be read without regard towards the rest oft the DC universe at the 80s in that time is probably why I have differing opinions to other fans when it comes to how much it "screwed up" continuity.

Both runs pre-date me by a few years, so I also read them both in trades and back issues that I could find. NTT I read first because I was watching the Teen Titans cartoon as it was airing, so through the Wonder Girl on Paradise Island stories in there, that may actually be my first exposure to comic book WW and her lore (sidebar, but it and the DCAU are also why I prefer Hippolyta as blonde). I wasn't reading any of them as they were coming out, but just as a modern reader looking at things from a distance, it can be annoying reading through NTT and knowing that the stories I'm reading are going to start getting tweaked as the timeline gets closer to COIE.

I think overall Perez's run is very good (I certainly enjoy it far more with each read through) and much better than anything else that happened post-Marston/pre-COIE. But I often feel like it'd be much better if it was moved earlier in DC's timeline or if Perez came on board and overhauled it without rebooting continuity. Like Wolfman and Perez did with the Titans, or Alan Moore did with Swamp Thing. His big changes were dropping the Diana Prince ID, adding flight, adding some new characters and revamping villains, all of which could have been done without a hard re-set.

[Gaius]

Both runs pre-date me by a few years, so I also read them both in trades and back issues that I could find. NTT I read first because I was watching the Teen Titans cartoon as it was airing, so through the Wonder Girl on Paradise Island stories in there, that may actually be my first exposure to comic book WW and her lore (sidebar, but it and the DCAU are also why I prefer Hippolyta as blonde). I wasn't reading any of them as they were coming out, but just as a modern reader looking at things from a distance, it can be annoying reading through NTT and knowing that the stories I'm reading are going to start getting tweaked as the timeline gets closer to COIE.

I think overall Perez's run is very good (I certainly enjoy it far more with each read through) and much better than anything else that happened post-Marston/pre-COIE. But I often feel like it'd be much better if it was moved earlier in DC's timeline or if Perez came on board and overhauled it without rebooting continuity. Like Wolfman and Perez did with the Titans, or Alan Moore did with Swamp Thing. His big changes were dropping the Diana Prince ID, adding flight, adding some new characters and revamping villains, all of which could have been done without a hard re-set.

Oh, I know the feeling. Rucka's first run is very bittersweet as I know once the Underworld arc is over, the actually good stuff gets tossed aside for Max Bore and an event no one cares about anymore.

[SiegePerilous02]

Oh, I know the feeling. Rucka's first run is very bittersweet as I know once the Underworld arc is over, the actually good stuff gets tossed aside for Max Bore and an event no one cares about anymore.

Yeah that's about where the run ends for me as well. I didn't even get the third Rucka volume for that reason.

[Gaius]

Artists I don't care for their Wonder Woman:

Joelle Jones
Yannik Paquette
Jason Fabok
Otto Schmidt
Dan Mora
David Yardin