Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

The execution wasn't great, but I loved the idea behind the Tom Tresser break-up. Great way to give a seemingly untouchable character actual flaws (i.e. not non-flaws like "cares too much") without resorting to character assassination. Diana was definitely in the wrong, but she had very little experience dating men and felt tons of pressure to start repopulating the Amazons - I totally buy that she'd communicate poorly and get way ahead of herself. Also I speak from experience when I say that jumping directly from "hmm maybe this could go somewhere" to "this is what we'll name our future babies" is lesbian dating in a nutshell and it makes perfect sense that someone from an all-women society would approach relationships that way...

That's definitely an interesting thought. I speeded through her relationshio with Tom Tesser since I had no interest in him. I haven't thought much about how Diana would be as a partner. Phil Jiminez also had some interesting thoughts about Diana's romances in his run.

But I've never really embraced the idea of Diana's story leading her to motherhood. It just doesn't feel like something her story is building to, even as a tertiary plot

And while we're on Gail Simone's run - no one could've pulled them off but Gail, but I love the gorilla knights and I don't care who knows it. The scene where Diana takes them as her advisors to a Hollywood board meeting is an all-timer (when they open their briefcases and they're full of rotten vegetables and newspapers...absolutely kills me).

Yeah the Gorillas were awesome.

Steve Orlando brought that back in Wonder Woman annual 3 in 2019 (of course he did, nobody else handles her history as well as him and Phil Jimenez)

[bat22]

Agree!
It is inexplicable that Byrne created Cassie (bah the Sandmarks, bah all his new cast in general) and not give the title of Wonder Girl to Vanessa, it would have been perfect. A tied up Wonder Girl in full communion with Diana.
Despite de the fact that I always loved Donna before the Crisis, after the COIE and all the mess that was made with her multiple origins, I would have preferred that she cease to exist.

Some writers like Jimenez are eager to work with what characters have been provided them. Byrne wanted to do "his own thing" even if that meant the redundancy of ignoring the Kapatelises for another archeologist mother/daughter pair in the Sandsmarks. The cynic in me wonders if he was just looking to make his own Wonder Girl to go the distance and maybe get a bit of that commercial royalty down the line.

He'd kind of repeat himself in Marvel in a time when the Julia Carpenter and Jessica Drew Spider-Women were both viable and on the table, only to depower/cripple and reduce them both to mentor roles for his OC Mattie Franklin as Spider-Woman III.

[Primal Slayer]

Barbara Minerva has been an ally, and they were temporary allies during The Lies. Their reluctant allies in the last two issues.

Straight out ally though, not temporary. Even Lex has temporarily sided with Superman. But I think taking one of her most iconic villains and making them into a hero would be a big mistake.

[PopQuezy]

Straight out ally though, not temporary. Even Lex has temporarily sided with Superman. But I think taking one of her most iconic villains and making them into a hero would be a big mistake.

The question you posed was when have they been allies? I answered based on the Rebirth continuity. They were straight-up allies during Year One. They teamed up to defeat Team Sear and "Ares." They were straight-up allies during The Lies. They teamed up to defeat Urzkataga and end the curse plaguing Barbara. They were allies for most of The Truth until Barbara transformed back into Cheetah. During the Cloonrad run, they've been allies for the past three issues.

I'm not certain what the Lex/Superman dynamic has to do with Cheetah/Wonder Woman, nor is my opinion based on the Lex/Superman dynamic.

So far, Cheetah's best recent characterization has been her close relationship with Diana, and her best recent stories have been when the writers get a chance to explore that dynamic. Cheetah can be similar to Catwoman or Harley Quinn. Someone who is mostly reformed, yet still has some less than scrupulous ways about herself. She doesn't need to be fully reformed, but I don't really think she works as a full-time villain. A friendly antagonist is where I would place Cheetah.

[Primal Slayer]

The question you posed was when have they been allies? I answered based on the Rebirth continuity. They were straight-up allies during Year One. They teamed up to defeat Team Sear and "Ares." They were straight-up allies during The Lies. They teamed up to defeat Urzkataga and end the curse plaguing Barbara. They were allies for most of The Truth until Barbara transformed back into Cheetah. During the Cloonrad run, they've been allies for the past three issues.

I'm not certain what the Lex/Superman dynamic has to do with Cheetah/Wonder Woman, nor is my opinion based on the Lex/Superman dynamic.

So far, Cheetah's best recent characterization has been her close relationship with Diana, and her best recent stories have been when the writers get a chance to explore that dynamic. Cheetah can be similar to Catwoman or Harley Quinn. Someone who is mostly reformed, yet still has some less than scrupulous ways about herself. She doesn't need to be fully reformed, but I don't really think she works as a full-time villain. A friendly antagonist is where I would place Cheetah.

My question was this exactly, as I stated.

When has she been a straight out ally to Diana in comics?

They've always been temporary allies with them reverting back to the status quo. That to me is temporary.

[Stanlos]

Like, within a run or overall? I think the Perez run and the WML run all ended with them as friends. Byrne's run did too and I think his picked back up the more tragic elements that Perez's ended with and that Rucka's Rebirth stuff like exploded

[PopQuezy]

My question was this exactly, as I stated.



They've always been temporary allies with them reverting back to the status quo. That to me is temporary.

I would argue my answer still applies since I am arguing Cheetah should be a part of Diana's supporting cast. I stated where they've been allies in the recent past, and how I think that's how Cheetah is best used. Year One, The Lies, the current Cloonrad arc is using Cheetah much better than she's been used as a villain in recent years.

[Perseus]

I'd rather they make Vanessa Diana's friend again and go back to Barbara being a criticism of colonialism and the adventure archaeologist archetype.

I am also interested in this too. Make Barabra turn irredeemable and manipulative. She should be both physically, morally, and emotionally challenging to Diana.

[marhawkman]

I am also interested in this too. Make Barabra turn irredeemable and manipulative. She should be both physically, morally, and emotionally challenging to Diana.

honestly... I think "irredeemable" makes her less interesting. she's more fun when you have reason to explore her motives and goals. Snapper Carr is one way to go there, but there's a lot of options.

[Koriand'r]

I would argue my answer still applies since I am arguing Cheetah should be a part of Diana's supporting cast. I stated where they've been allies in the recent past, and how I think that's how Cheetah is best used. Year One, The Lies, the current Cloonrad arc is using Cheetah much better than she's been used as a villain in recent years.

This is true. She's been a lackluster villain practically since Perez. I'd welcome her turn as anti-hero, in fact she could still use her hatred of gods as a primary motivation.

[marhawkman]

This is true. She's been a lackluster villain practically since Perez. I'd welcome her turn as anti-hero, in fact she could still use her hatred of gods as a primary motivation.

Hmm... yeah, Cheetah's not affiliated with the Greek, Norse or Egyptian gods? but I could see her being not fond of them.

[bardkeep]

Somewhere in the middle would probably be for the best when it comes to Cheetah. I think her role in Rebirth doesn't really require the Kapatelis women to be out of the picture. Instead of "Dr. Perez," I would have had Julia be the one to try to communicate with Diana and not get anywhere, and so she's the one who recommends Barbara be brought in (against her better judgment- she doesn't like Barbara's shady reputation, but still can see Barbara knows her stuff). Then Julia is brought back in after Barbara becomes Cheetah to be their archaeologist advisor, and that's when Diana meets Vanessa, etc. Ideally, Donna would be introduced as Wonder Girl around this time, so she'd interact with Vanessa and the school cast.

Barbara and Diana only know each other for a year and a half or so before the curse happens, so I think Barbara wouldn't reveal all aspects of her character to Diana (and the good side she shows Diana can still be genuine, and naïve Diana wouldn't know enough yet to dig further). Still leaves an opportunity for Julia to come in to provide an older, wiser perspective to contrast the younger crew (Barbara, Steve and Etta) for a still fish-out-of-water Diana, and Diana can learn the less savory aspects of Barbara's character during her encounters with Cheetah. And try to reconcile them with the woman she made friends with.

For full friend-turned-villain as a victim, Vanessa can still claim the spot.

I love this idea! Perfect middle ground.

But I've never really embraced the idea of Diana's story leading her to motherhood. It just doesn't feel like something her story is building to, even as a tertiary plot

Normally I'd agree but I thought it made sense in the context of the run. It was immediately post-Amazons Attack so the only known Amazons left were Diana, Hippolyta, and a handful of prisoners. Hippolyta was specifically pressuring her to have babies so they could start repopulating Themyscira.

[Guy_McNichts]

For all its faults, one thing about Wonder Woman: Dead Earth I liked is that it portrayed an all-out, nothing held back fight between Diana and Superman as catastrophic. They pretty much ended the world, which I think is how a real fight between the two should go. Mutually assured destruction.

[bardkeep]

For all its faults, one thing about Wonder Woman: Dead Earth I liked is that it portrayed an all-out, nothing held back fight between Diana and Superman as catastrophic. They pretty much ended the world, which I think is how a real fight between the two should go. Mutually assured destruction.

I've got such mixed feelings on Dead Earth. There are things I like about it and I think the artwork is great, and I'm willing to forgive a lot of it because I understand that it's meant to be dark and gritty and over-the-top violent, but some of it is just...ugh.

For one thing I loved DWJ's take on the clay origin. Getting the gods passed out drunk and stealing their blood feels very mythic. And I actually really like the idea that Diana is so powerful because Hippolyta was so deeply traumatized by her experience with the gods that she went overboard making sure no one could ever hurt her. It's a darker take on the story that doesn't betray the thematic foundations of the character or strip Hippolyta of her agency.

I also think calling it an "Amazons evil" story is reductive. It was far from a perfect take and they did kinda make Themyscira out to be sort of sad and desolate, but they were clearly very kind and loving to Diana. They also made a point to show that Diana was pushing for diplomacy until the very end, with the Amazons only attacking when it was clear that nothing else was working and their home was in danger, and in the end the US military came off a lot worse than they did. I did hate that he used Philippus and Nubia interchangeably though - other writers have done it as well (Grant Morrison in Earth One) and it's racist and ill-informed.

And Diana's voice was lovely. You really felt her warmth and love, I liked how she dealt with Cheetah, and I really liked her line about how immortality shapes her perspective on redemption because she thinks of things in lifetimes rather than years. Her brief decision to turn on humanity honestly seemed justified to me - she'd just found out the monsters she'd been killing were her people who'd been horrifically mutated after humans nuked them into oblivion.

Unfortunately the positive elements of her characterization are largely undermined by her, you know, ripping Superman's spine out of his corpse and use it as a whip.

And I like that DWJ really made her a powerhouse, but surely he could've done it without making Superman the good-hearted voice of reason to the end and her the one who snapped and lost control of her powers. She very much had a right to be angry, but I can't even tell you how sick I am of the "extremely powerful woman causes mass destruction because she's too emotional and has to be brought to heel by an equally powerful, emotionally stable man" trope.

[Alpha]

I did hate that he used Philippus and Nubia interchangeably though - other writers have done it as well (Grant Morrison in Earth One) and it's racist and ill-informed.

Could you explain what you mean by this? How were Philippus and Nubia used interchangibly? I haven't read Dead Earth, but I have read the three volumes of Earth One.