Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Gaius]

I've got such mixed feelings on Dead Earth. There are things I like about it and I think the artwork is great, and I'm willing to forgive a lot of it because I understand that it's meant to be dark and gritty and over-the-top violent, but some of it is just...ugh.

For one thing I loved DWJ's take on the clay origin. Getting the gods passed out drunk and stealing their blood feels very mythic. And I actually really like the idea that Diana is so powerful because Hippolyta was so deeply traumatized by her experience with the gods that she went overboard making sure no one could ever hurt her. It's a darker take on the story that doesn't betray the thematic foundations of the character or strip Hippolyta of her agency.

I also think calling it an "Amazons evil" story is reductive. It was far from a perfect take and they did kinda make Themyscira out to be sort of sad and desolate, but they were clearly very kind and loving to Diana. They also made a point to show that Diana was pushing for diplomacy until the very end, with the Amazons only attacking when it was clear that nothing else was working and their home was in danger, and in the end the US military came off a lot worse than they did. I did hate that he used Philippus and Nubia interchangeably though - other writers have done it as well (Grant Morrison in Earth One) and it's racist and ill-informed.

And Diana's voice was lovely. You really felt her warmth and love, I liked how she dealt with Cheetah, and I really liked her line about how immortality shapes her perspective on redemption because she thinks of things in lifetimes rather than years. Her brief decision to turn on humanity honestly seemed justified to me - she'd just found out the monsters she'd been killing were her people who'd been horrifically mutated after humans nuked them into oblivion.

Unfortunately the positive elements of her characterization are largely undermined by her, you know, ripping Superman's spine out of his corpse and use it as a whip.

And I like that DWJ really made her a powerhouse, but surely he could've done it without making Superman the good-hearted voice of reason to the end and her the one who snapped and lost control of her powers. She very much had a right to be angry, but I can't even tell you how sick I am of the "extremely powerful woman causes mass destruction because she's too emotional and has to be brought to heel by an equally powerful, emotionally stable man" trope.

Yeah, it's a weird one. For someone said who didn't really much of anything WW, he had a surprisingly good voice for her throughout but while I was able to roll with the nuclear holocaust part, the skull flail thing just sunk the story like a rock for me.

[bardkeep]

Could you explain what you mean by this? How were Philippus and Nubia used interchangibly? I haven't read Dead Earth, but I have read the three volumes of Earth One.

In both of them Nubia is Hippolyta's consort/closest advisor (and in Dead Earth she's also Diana's primary trainer). Philippus isn't in them at all.

[Guy_McNichts]

Dead Earth for me was a mixed bag overall--kind of like WW84 now that I think about it. There are things I liked and things not so much. Stuff I thought worked, others no.

I agree about Diana's voice. I thought Johnson captured her rather well. Her optimism and hope even in the bleakest of circumstances. His art is distinct and energetic--maybe not everyone's taste--but it worked for the grungy, hell story he was going for. I also like the ambition of the story. Other heroes have had their own post-apocalyptic tales, so I'm glad that Diana got one that she was the center of.

I thought the actual Amazons came across fine--their getting turned into monsters is supposed to tragic and horrific--but I didn't care for its portrayal of Hippolyta or the suggestion that she created Diana as an act of revenge and saw her as a weapon. That, I think, really goes against the ethos of Wonder Woman and ties into a recurring theme I really didn't like.
Namely that Diana's powers are dangerous, must be contained, and she's a ticking time-bomb.

Superman gets hit with a similar theme far too often...usually in the form of "evil Superman" stories. The idea that he's the real threat, we should all be grateful he doesn't just murder us, and that Clark himself must be afraid of what he's capable of. Mileage may vary on well it works for him, but in my opinion, it's not something that works for Wonder Woman.
Not to say there can't be exploration of what can happen if she abused her gifts, but I don't think Diana should be a character who lives in fear of her abilities. I agree that we don't need more "women with power will go mad and need men to calm them down" stories. Wonder Woman, as a character and story, should be a celebration of women's power.

For me, this was made worse in Dead Earth because the judges of Diana's power and her worthiness were Bat-Poochie and Dee.
Batman...guh, what else would you expect from the prick? But I absolutely did not like Dee and resented that by the end of the series, she was positioned as the moral authority to deem whether Diana deserved her power. One of the first things this woman did to Diana is betray her and sell her into slavery. She shits on her for much of the story, and now--in the last issue--she's the one who lectures Diana about power and responsibility.
Cheetah should've eaten her sanctimonious face.

Back to Hippolyta, I like that the story appreciated the gravity of her turning into a monster and Diana having to oppose her. It might not have bothered me as much if we hadn't seen similar "bad Hippolyta" stories done previously...and badly.

As for the Superman spinal...that just seems out of place with the story's tone.
It's the kind of image/idea that should be in an over-the-top, absurd rule-of-cool story--the kind that I think Scott Snyder was going for with his Metal books. It doesn't work in this otherwise somber, dour story. Especially on the heels of Diana realizing she killed Clark and begging his forgiveness.

I agree that the actual circumstances of the fight weren't great--relating again to idea Diana's a ticking time-bomb--but as said, I did like that it suggests a true no-holds-barred fight between Wonder Woman and Superman would end the world.
That's actually a concept I wouldn't mind seeing explored in another Elseworlds. I know we don't need more "evil Superman" or "evil Wonder Woman" stories, but suppose there was one where Diana and Clark are enemies vying for control/freedom of the Earth, but they don't want to actually engage with each other because they know it would be mutually assured destruction. Kind of like the real-life Cold War.

Would be better than Injustice at least, low bar that it is. But that's something for the Elseworlds thread.

[king of hybrids]

Controversial opinion:

Wonder Woman and her mythos have ended up the single most inconsistent IP DC has, and have become a microcosm of DC’s incessant addiction to reboots & retcons since COIE

It’s not even a clay vs demigod thing*; successive runs that have the same origin radically retcon each other in ways they’d never be able to pull off with Batman and Superman

*which we will probably never be rid of one way or the other, at least until DC tried to reabsorb Sandman

[Agent Z]

I never got people's issue with Diana being a virgin.

[DisneyBoy]

I never got people's issue with Diana being a virgin.

As in, her staying one forever, or her being one on the island?

I personally don't like her being active on the island if she's the only girl of her "generation" around. But then I don't like her falling in love with the first man she meets and leaving home to be with him, essentially.

The virginity thing only really became a problem after Perez left the title, since no one figured out how Diana should lose her V card, or with whom. It was like the editors and writers all avoided having to deal with it because of the possible backlash.

Who *should* Diana have had her first time with in the Perez continuity, and when should that have happened? She was interested in Superman but they decided to remain friends. She was curious about Hermes but he helped bless her and was a God and came on a bit too strong...and then died, so...yeah. Following them, who was a good candidate?

I'm glad she didn't boink a Justice Leaguer, as that would have been sensationalized, and frankly, she works with them all so...it's not an ideal situation.

Phil gave us the infamous couch sleepover at the Barnes Household, and that went over pretty poorly, but hey, at least he tried to address the elephant in the room and say Diana wasn't a virgin after all those years in the modern world.

[Agent Z]

As in, her staying one forever, or her being one on the island?

At her being one at all. If she had remained one forever, I still wouldn't care.

The virginity thing only really became a problem after Perez left the title, since no one figured out how Diana should lose her V card, or with whom. It was like the editors and writers all avoided having to deal with it because of the possible backlash.

Who *should* Diana have had her first time with in the Perez continuity, and when should that have happened? She was interested in Superman but they decided to remain friends. She was curious about Hermes but he helped bless her and was a God and came on a bit too strong...and then died, so...yeah. Following them, who was a good candidate?

I'm glad she didn't boink a Justice Leaguer, as that would have been sensationalized, and frankly, she works with them all so...it's not an ideal situation.

Phil gave us the infamous couch sleepover at the Barnes Household, and that went over pretty poorly, but hey, at least he tried to address the elephant in the room and say Diana wasn't a virgin after all those years in the modern world.

It seems to me it only became an issue when Diana started seeing Trevor Barnes. I just don't see how whether or not Diana would lose her virginity was something people felt had to be addressed by DC. There are numerous female characters over 20 (and a few others under that age) who were sexually active so why was it so important that this one female character wasn't?

[HsssH]

It seems to me it only became an issue when Diana started seeing Trevor Barnes. I just don't see how whether or not Diana would lose her virginity was something people felt had to be addressed by DC. There are numerous female characters over 20 (and a few others under that age) who were sexually active so why was it so tantamount that this one female character wasn't?

I think it is sadly due to cultural divide. Right leaning people are more likely to talk a lot about virginity and how important it is and left leaning people are more likely to take WW as an icon for feminism and LGBT. And well, if another side likes something then it obviously has to be changed.

[DisneyBoy]

Perhaps it is to some degree...but also let's remember that Diana went from having her first moments in the Regular World during WWII...to having her first moments in the Regular World in the mid-80s. That's a huge difference. In the Golden Age, the *intimate life* of a lead character just would never have been addressed overtly. Plus, in the Golden Age, Diana fell for Steve right off the bat, so it was easy to assume they'd...been together at some point. Or maybe she "saved herself" for decades, until that wedding on Olympus right before COIE.

The modern relaunch had to reflect modern sensibilities, and it also was a very detailed look at Diana's life and all the important events in it. Since she's not part of the Regular World, like Canary or Zatanna or whoever, we can't assume she's been active before. The book even highlighted her awakening interest in men through those plots with Superman and Hermes...Perez knew it had to be addressed. We weren't going to assume she was hooking up with someone off-panel if there was no indication she was even involved with someone!

Honestly, complaints from racists aside, I don't think Trevor Barnes was likeable enough to become one of Diana's boyfriends, least of all her first. He dismissed her and spied on her reunion with her dead mother. There were some real faux pas. And hooking up with her on his parent's couch? I mean...really? That was bound to upset people.

I'd like to think he'd have been far less scrutinized if Diana had already had a relationship or two under her belt. But then, maybe Phil would have written him entirely differently if that were the case.

[Agent Z]

Honestly, complaints from racists aside, I don't think Trevor Barnes was likeable enough to become one of Diana's boyfriends, least of all her first. He dismissed her and spied on her reunion with her dead mother. There were some real faux pas. And hooking up with her on his parent's couch? I mean...really? That was bound to upset people.

I think you're blowing things way out of proportion. His "dismissing" her was simply telling her that she wasn't interested in a date in a reasonable way (and he later said that he felt she was out of his league). He didn't intentionally spy on her and she wasn't particularly upset about it from what I recall. They didn't hook up on the couch either.

[Guy_McNichts]

I think it has to do with the belief that Wonder Woman should be a sex-positive character. Keeping her in perpetual virginity turns her, intentional or not, into a Madonna figure too good for the sin of sex, which is a pretty regressive perspective.
And as we saw with Post-Crisis, it eventually got blown up into "who is worthy to be Diana's first" or, worse, turned her into the prize for the coolest Justice League member to bang first.

It doesn't help that many male comic writers tend not to handle women's sexuality with much grace either way. Not just for Diana but pretty much all female characters.

I know Twitter isn't the best gauge for...anything...but I've noticed there does seem to be a growing shift in perspective when it comes to Diana's love life and her kinks (if any).
I know for a long time the bondage stuff and Marston's polyamorous lifestyle was seen by many as an embarrassing skeleton in the closet. These days I see more and more fans embracing it and wanting Diana to be a kink goddess who has the best sex with her partners of choice.

Personally, I think it's better to get it out of the way and not turn it into a big thing. Just establish she had a girlfriend or two while on Themyscira before Steve came along. The end.

[phonogram12]

I think it has to do with the belief that Wonder Woman should be a sex-positive character. Keeping her in perpetual virginity turns her, intentional or not, into a Madonna figure too good for the sin of sex, which is a pretty regressive perspective.
And as we saw with Post-Crisis, it eventually got blown up into "who is worthy to be Diana's first" or, worse, turned her into the prize for the coolest Justice League member to bang first.

It doesn't help that many male comic writers tend not to handle women's sexuality with much grace either way. Not just for Diana but pretty much all female characters.

I know Twitter isn't the best gauge for...anything...but I've noticed there does seem to be a growing shift in perspective when it comes to Diana's love life and her kinks (if any).
I know for a long time the bondage stuff and Marston's polyamorous lifestyle was seen by many as an embarrassing skeleton in the closet. These days I see more and more fans embracing it and wanting Diana to be a kink goddess who has the best sex with her partners of choice.

Personally, I think it's better to get it out of the way and not turn it into a big thing. Just establish she had a girlfriend or two while on Themyscira before Steve came along. The end.

All of this. Every single syllable.

[Agent Z]

I think it has to do with the belief that Wonder Woman should be a sex-positive character. Keeping her in perpetual virginity turns her, intentional or not, into a Madonna figure too good for the sin of sex, which is a pretty regressive perspective.
And as we saw with Post-Crisis, it eventually got blown up into "who is worthy to be Diana's first" or, worse, turned her into the prize for the coolest Justice League member to bang first.

It doesn't help that many male comic writers tend not to handle women's sexuality with much grace either way. Not just for Diana but pretty much all female characters.

I know Twitter isn't the best gauge for...anything...but I've noticed there does seem to be a growing shift in perspective when it comes to Diana's love life and her kinks (if any).
I know for a long time the bondage stuff and Marston's polyamorous lifestyle was seen by many as an embarrassing skeleton in the closet. These days I see more and more fans embracing it and wanting Diana to be a kink goddess who has the best sex with her partners of choice.

Personally, I think it's better to get it out of the way and not turn it into a big thing. Just establish she had a girlfriend or two while on Themyscira before Steve came along. The end.

I suppose I can see the logic here, but I myself never saw Diana being a virgin or not being particularly sexual as being sex negative, if that makes any sense. When it comes to regressive attitudes towards sex, I find villains like Poison Ivy, Emma Frost, Cheshire, Lady Mastermind and countless others as better examples of that given how tied their sexuality is to their evil and their methods.

[Stanlos]

Controversial opinion:

Wonder Woman and her mythos have ended up the single most inconsistent IP DC has, and have become a microcosm of DC’s incessant addiction to reboots & retcons since COIE

It’s not even a clay vs demigod thing*; successive runs that have the same origin radically retcon each other in ways they’d never be able to pull off with Batman and Superman

*which we will probably never be rid of one way or the other, at least until DC tried to reabsorb Sandman

I think for WW, it is indicative of the powers that be not only failing to understand the IP but being arrogant aboush and ignoring writers and artists trying to help them get it right.

[bardkeep]

I thought the actual Amazons came across fine--their getting turned into monsters is supposed to tragic and horrific--but I didn't care for its portrayal of Hippolyta or the suggestion that she created Diana as an act of revenge and saw her as a weapon. That, I think, really goes against the ethos of Wonder Woman and ties into a recurring theme I really didn't like.
Namely that Diana's powers are dangerous, must be contained, and she's a ticking time-bomb.

Not to say there can't be exploration of what can happen if she abused her gifts, but I don't think Diana should be a character who lives in fear of her abilities. I agree that we don't need more "women with power will go mad and need men to calm them down" stories. Wonder Woman, as a character and story, should be a celebration of women's power.

I didn't read it as Hippolyta making Diana a weapon at all (that was Earth One's job). It seemed pretty clear to me that Hippolyta was raped by the gods, made Diana so strong because she wanted to make sure she'd never get hurt in the same way, and overcorrected. There was even a scene where Nubia told her that Diana's strength was getting dangerous and Hippolyta basically responded, "I know but I don't care, I would've given anything to be that strong when I was violated."

I totally get what you mean about how WW should be a celebration of women's power, but I don't think it was anti-feminist - I thought it was a really interesting exploration of the trauma that mothers pass to their daughters. It fits with a major theme of the mythos and it works perfectly for Hippolyta because one of her few consistent bits of characterization through her history has been her overprotectiveness.

Controversial opinion:

Wonder Woman and her mythos have ended up the single most inconsistent IP DC has, and have become a microcosm of DC’s incessant addiction to reboots & retcons since COIE

It’s not even a clay vs demigod thing*; successive runs that have the same origin radically retcon each other in ways they’d never be able to pull off with Batman and Superman

*which we will probably never be rid of one way or the other, at least until DC tried to reabsorb Sandman

This isn't really controversial, it's the truth. n52 is the nadir of it, but really it goes all the way back to Kanigher wiping nearly everything Marston set up because he didn't like the character's politics. Even post-Perez it's been an endless cycle of arrogant writers who often don't even actually want to write WW picking up the book and trying to shape the character to their vision (see: WML, John Byrne, the Heinboot, Azzarello, James Robinson). There's really no excuse for the current mess, Greg Rucka set up a very nice clean slate but Robinson immediately made it messy by bringing in the Zeus and Jason stuff from n52 and then we got the nonsense with her being in the JSA in the '40s even though it directly contradicts the fact that Steve and Etta are still young in continuity.

I think it has to do with the belief that Wonder Woman should be a sex-positive character. Keeping her in perpetual virginity turns her, intentional or not, into a Madonna figure too good for the sin of sex, which is a pretty regressive perspective.
And as we saw with Post-Crisis, it eventually got blown up into "who is worthy to be Diana's first" or, worse, turned her into the prize for the coolest Justice League member to bang first.

It doesn't help that many male comic writers tend not to handle women's sexuality with much grace either way. Not just for Diana but pretty much all female characters.

I know Twitter isn't the best gauge for...anything...but I've noticed there does seem to be a growing shift in perspective when it comes to Diana's love life and her kinks (if any).
I know for a long time the bondage stuff and Marston's polyamorous lifestyle was seen by many as an embarrassing skeleton in the closet. These days I see more and more fans embracing it and wanting Diana to be a kink goddess who has the best sex with her partners of choice.

Personally, I think it's better to get it out of the way and not turn it into a big thing. Just establish she had a girlfriend or two while on Themyscira before Steve came along. The end.

This is the take.

There's also the fact that with an island of only women, the tendency would be to either hypersexualize them for the male gaze or make it sterile. Making Diana a virgin before Steve arrives suggests the latter in addition to adding a whole element of "Diana abandons paradise for the D." Giving the Amazons sexual agency without fetishizing it is important IMO, especially considering GA WW comics were one of few positive portrayals of female homoeroticism at the time of their release.

I suppose I can see the logic here, but I myself never saw Diana being a virgin or not being particularly sexual as being sex negative, if that makes any sense. When it comes to regressive attitudes towards sex, I find villains like Poison Ivy, Emma Frost, Cheshire, Lady Mastermind and countless others as better examples of that given how tied their sexuality is to their evil and their methods.

Surely this is why Diana SHOULDN'T be a virgin. She occupies a unique position in pop culture because she's THE woman hero, and any decision you make with her is big. If she's a virgin, it sets up a dichotomy where virginal = heroic and sexual = villainous.