Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[HsssH]

And by making her sexual you are not doing the opposite..? Maybe it just shouldn't be a factor.

[marhawkman]

And by making her sexual you are not doing the opposite..? Maybe it just shouldn't be a factor.

Yeah, this isn't a hentai manga, why does it matter at all?

[king of hybrids]

Controversial Opinion:

Even the more controversial New52 would have gone down a hell of a lot less badly if they hadn’t been so lazy:
- Zeus zapping a clay figure is tame compared to how he created some of his kids (and it’s not like Hera wouldn’t go after Diana anyway) why add the clichés?
- why the pirates and selling sons for slaves when DC have already dabbled with the Gargareans (ie the consensual means if procreating and dumping ground for their sons)
- why immediately revert Hera to wicked stepmother after half a run of moving past it for the sake of repeating every Heracles story ever
- Zeke growing up to not be Classical Zeus again - lol
- why make Jason some IC chosen one instead of just a Gargarean demigod

[phonogram12]

This is the take.

There's also the fact that with an island of only women, the tendency would be to either hypersexualize them for the male gaze or make it sterile. Making Diana a virgin before Steve arrives suggests the latter in addition to adding a whole element of "Diana abandons paradise for the D." Giving the Amazons sexual agency without fetishizing it is important IMO, especially considering GA WW comics were one of few positive portrayals of female homoeroticism at the time of their release.

Surely this is why Diana SHOULDN'T be a virgin. She occupies a unique position in pop culture because she's THE woman hero, and any decision you make with her is big. If she's a virgin, it sets up a dichotomy where virginal = heroic and sexual = villainous.

Yeah, I remember in an old post-Crisis Who's Who entry for Cheetah it stated that the ritual or whatever she had to go through didn't go the way it was supposed to was because one of the requirements for it was that the person had to be a virgin, which Minerva wasn't. While obviously not the exact wording, even back then it felt like it was a judgement on her character for that reason and that reason alone, especially since she was the archenemy of WW.

[Alpha]

It's been an endless cycle of
arrogant writers who often don't even actually want to write WW picking up the book and trying to shape the character to their vision (see: WML, John Byrne, the Heinboot, Azzarello, James Robinson).

You should take William Messner-Loebs off that list. He certainly doesn't seem to be a big fan of Diana and Wonder Woman comics before writing her (which is also true of Perez from what I've heard) but WML wrote many of the best character moments, and in my opinion the best ever characterization of her.

[bardkeep]

You should take William Messner-Loebs off that list. He certainly doesn't seem to be a big fan of Diana and Wonder Woman comics before writing her (which is also true of Perez from what I've heard) but WML wrote many of the best character moments, and in my opinion the best ever characterization of her.

Quality aside, he did exactly what I’m talking about. Didn’t want to deal with anything Perez set up so he just ignored it and upended the status quo without narratively justifying it. Changed the entire genre of the book, totally scrapped Diana’s role as ambassador, barely used Perez’s supporting cast, majorly scaled down her powers, completely changed all of the characters’ personalities (really not a fan of how he handled Hippolyta), barely touched the mythological or political elements that were central to the Perez era, etc.

I’m not counting Rucka’s Rebirth here because his was a back to basics approach after the disastrous n52 rather than a “bold new direction.” And I don’t count Perez because he was as much of an architect as Marston and the character desperately needed a reimagining post-COIE.

[Alpha]

Okay yeah, WML's worldbuilding was unambitious and he didn't progress much of the previous plots, but personally, I certainly didn't want anybody to follow what Perez was setting up in her world. That's just me of course.

As per his Hippolyta, I think she was flawed in an interesting way. Heck, I expected Kelly Sue Deconnick to go in a pretty similar direction with Historia 3 (and she kind of did)

[Stanlos]

Controversial Opinion:

Even the more controversial New52 would have gone down a hell of a lot less badly if they hadn’t been so lazy:
- Zeus zapping a clay figure is tame compared to how he created some of his kids (and it’s not like Hera wouldn’t go after Diana anyway) why add the clichés?
- why the pirates and selling sons for slaves when DC have already dabbled with the Gargareans (ie the consensual means if procreating and dumping ground for their sons)
- why immediately revert Hera to wicked stepmother after half a run of moving past it for the sake of repeating every Heracles story ever
- Zeke growing up to not be Classical Zeus again - lol
- why make Jason some IC chosen one instead of just a Gargarean demigod

My blood boils at the mere thought of that Kratos-Soul Calibur III plagiarism in WW drag.

[Agent Z]

My blood boils at the mere thought of that Kratos-Soul Calibur III plagiarism in WW drag.

Wait, how is this like Soul Calibur III?

[bat22]

Controversial Opinion:

- why immediately revert Hera to wicked stepmother after half a run of moving past it for the sake of repeating every Heracles story ever

I don't mind this at all. It adds depth to have a villainous if not petty or fallible goddess similar to the male gods that Wonder Woman has had to contend with. It also adds a bit of grey to Hercules' background if both Hera and Zeus had some input in how he turned out.

[BiteTheBullet]

Quality aside, he did exactly what I’m talking about. Didn’t want to deal with anything Perez set up so he just ignored it and upended the status quo without narratively justifying it. Changed the entire genre of the book, totally scrapped Diana’s role as ambassador, barely used Perez’s supporting cast, majorly scaled down her powers, completely changed all of the characters’ personalities (really not a fan of how he handled Hippolyta), barely touched the mythological or political elements that were central to the Perez era, etc.

I’m not counting Rucka’s Rebirth here because his was a back to basics approach after the disastrous n52 rather than a “bold new direction.” And I don’t count Perez because he was as much of an architect as Marston and the character desperately needed a reimagining post-COIE.

Very astute assessment of WML. I wasn't a fan of his writing (just reread it a few months ago) and he definitely depowered Wonder Woman during his time. His sales got boosted by Deodato, so I don't think it was his writing that kept many people on the book.

[Stanlos]

Wait, how is this like Soul Calibur III?

Athena's look is basically that weird Olcadan guy you encounter in the dungeon quest mode

[marhawkman]

Athena's look is basically that weird Olcadan guy you encounter in the dungeon quest mode

Oh yeah, the guy who got cursed to be a half-owl creature.

[Guy_McNichts]

Relating to the previous talk about Diana being a sex-positive character...

Superwoman--as Wonder Woman's Earth-3 opposite--should be an uptight prude who condemns others for expressing themselves or even feeling joy rather than the typically slutty femme fatale she's usually imagined as.

Her design should reflect this...wearing the supervillain equivalent of an unflattering school marm gown instead of a skin-tight dominatrix attire. Nothing seductive or alluring--just a nasty, judgemental scowl.

She can keep the barbed lasso, suiting her as someone who flogs those who disobey.

[Stanlos]

Quality aside, he did exactly what I’m talking about. Didn’t want to deal with anything Perez set up so he just ignored it and upended the status quo without narratively justifying it. Changed the entire genre of the book, totally scrapped Diana’s role as ambassador, barely used Perez’s supporting cast, majorly scaled down her powers, completely changed all of the characters’ personalities (really not a fan of how he handled Hippolyta), barely touched the mythological or political elements that were central to the Perez era, etc.

I’m not counting Rucka’s Rebirth here because his was a back to basics approach after the disastrous n52 rather than a “bold new direction.” And I don’t count Perez because he was as much of an architect as Marston and the character desperately needed a reimagining post-COIE.

That wasn't a WML thing, that was an editorial thing. They wanted to ho as far from Perez as possible and gave WML carte blanc. Ig was basically a reboot with a different origin for the Amazons, a different origin for the Contest, a different set of parameters for the gear and much more besides.