Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Agent Z]

Wonder Woman isn't about defeating a long dead religion by killing their gods.

She's about revolutionizing society, replacing the current world order with more fulfilling new ones.

1) No one said anything about killing the gods.

2) Fighting Ares and revolutionizing the world are not mutually exclusive anyway since the gods have been present since the original Marston stories.

We've had this discussion numerous times before so I wouldn't be saying anything new, I'm sorry if I'm annoying.

Diana rarely needs flight to solve her issues. Hulk is one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe and he doesn't need to fly, why does Diana?

Diana isn't Hulk and I can say the same thing about her needing the lasso to solve her issues, especially with how useless it often ends up being. I don't know why this question comes up with Diana and only Diana.

[HsssH]

Maybe some people like invisible airplane?

[Alpha]

Zeus and Hercules are the embodiment of some of the ideas that prevent change in our society to this day. She and the Amazons defeating them on multiple fronts (not just in battles) would externalize the themes she tackles. And it would need to involve grand scale action scenes in a live action movie. That just shouldn't be the only thing going on.

"The Greek Gods are patriarchal" yes, and it has nothing to do with why modern society still is the way it is.

Fighting the greek gods isn't what Diana's saga and quest us leading to. It's not the big finale she deserves. It's a distraction in between.

Also, you realize the Amazons are pagans, right? How would they be destroying a dead religion exactly? The goddesses are still very much part of their entire culture.

the amazons don't worship Ares, and most oeople here don't seem to want them to worship Zeus. So again, the cult of tjose gods is dead.

And if the only surviving worshippers of the religion are a couple hundred people living in an island distant from civilization, that religion is dead if not dying.

1) No one said anything about killing the gods.

The comment I quote was literally ssying the big finale of her trilogy should be Diana vs the gods

Fighting Ares and revolutionizing the world are not mutually exclusive anyway since the gods have been present since the original Marston stories.
Yes they have, and in the Marston stories they were thematic reoccuring villains, but certainly not the culmination of her story. The big team up between villains and attack on paradise island had nothing to do with the gods. When she travelled to the futire and saw the potential of her world being threatened, the evil dudes weren't worshippers of Mars.



Diana isn't Hulk and I can say the same thing about her needing the lasso to solve her issues, especially with how useless it often ends up being. I don't know why this question comes up with Diana and only Diana.

Because Diana flying is a random power she only has because superman also has it. She rarely needs it, and it doesn't fit the theme if her being the strongest of amazons. I've never liked the "each god gave her a blessing" because again, her birth is should be about the scarred womens in Paradise creating the ideal firm of a powerful woman they idealize, without any of the trauma they experienced.

I mean, I guess I can get used to the thematuc isea that her power of belief being represented by ascension, like how in Peter Pan flying is a manifestation of her belief, but that still feels unnecessary since she diesn't need to fly in irder to defeat her enemies.

Like look at Cheetah. How is there any fear of cheetah killing her if Diana can just fly away?

[Agent Z]

Maybe some people like invisible airplane?

That's still around. It hasn't gone away despite Diana's flight powers.

[Agent Z]

The comment I quote was literally ssying the big finale of her trilogy should be Diana vs the gods

Again, no one said anything about killing them. And this was clearly in the context of a movie trilogy, not the main comics.

Because Diana flying is a random power she only has because superman also has it.

She also has super strength and speed because he had those powers as well. Superman doesn't have a patent on flight and so many characters have this ability I don't know why anyone would argue from the perspective that it's just her copying Superman (especially when stuff like her unremarkable civilian identity, wearing primary colors and coming from a technologically advanced civilization are more obvious tropes associated with Superman).

She rarely needs it,

Aside from transportation and evasion in battle with opponents who can't fly or who can and would be much more difficult for her to beat otherwise.

and it doesn't fit the theme if her being the strongest of amazons.

Diana is supposed to be the best of the Amazons which doesn't itself require her to be stronger than them.

I've never liked the "each god gave her a blessing" because again, her birth is should be about the scarred womens in Paradise creating the ideal firm of a powerful woman they idealize, without any of the trauma they experienced.

None of this is negated by her being empowered by the gods and given flight.

Also, the Amazons aren't a hive mind (or at least they shouldn't be). Why would they all come up with the same ideal woman? How is giving Diana flight bringing back the Amazons' trauma?

Like look at Cheetah. How is there any fear of cheetah killing her if Diana can just fly away?

There's no fear of Cheetah killing her period. Whether it's Priscilla Rich who was just a crazy woman in an animal costume or Barbara Minerva with her inconsistent strength and competence level. One of many reasons trying to push Cheetah as Diana's arch villains tends to fall flat (though she is better than most examples others could come up with).

[SiegePerilous02]

Cheetah has surprise attacked Diana before and gotten her on the ground. And there are also instances where Diana isn't in the position to fly away from the conflict. Plus writers should learn into her schemer tendencies to generate some conflict instead of defining their feud only with physical fights.

Also, when has there ever been any legit fear of the villain killing the hero in superhero comics? At least when the hero is a big name character.

None of that has any to do with her flight. Just have Diana's power set match her publication history,: she used to not be able to fly, so had the plane. She flies now and keeps it in reserve. I don't know why this has been too much to ask.

"The Greek Gods are patriarchal" yes, and it has nothing to do with why modern society still is the way it is.

Fighting the greek gods isn't what Diana's saga and quest us leading to. It's not the big finale she deserves. It's a distraction in between.
the amazons don't worship Ares, and most oeople here don't seem to want them to worship Zeus. So again, the cult of tjose gods is dead.

And if the only surviving worshippers of the religion are a couple hundred people living in an island distant from civilization, that religion is dead if not dying

Modern society is still patriarchal. So the Amazons have been dealing with this since ancient times. Like Hera said in Historia, women are still waiting on justice from the systems Zeus represents.

Diana has been fighting the Greek gods since Marston. Clearly he wanted her to do such things. There has never been an issue with her continuing to fight Ares in the modern day, or for the Gods to influence her stories in the modern day, so why should that suddenly change now?

You're the only one who extrapolated "she needs to kill the Gods" from my statement. You know there is any number of ways a big finale conflict can be resolved, right?

[bardkeep]

Because Diana flying is a random power she only has because superman also has it. She rarely needs it, and it doesn't fit the theme if her being the strongest of amazons. I've never liked the "each god gave her a blessing" because again, her birth is should be about the scarred womens in Paradise creating the ideal firm of a powerful woman they idealize, without any of the trauma they experienced.

I mean, I guess I can get used to the thematuc isea that her power of belief being represented by ascension, like how in Peter Pan flying is a manifestation of her belief, but that still feels unnecessary since she diesn't need to fly in irder to defeat her enemies.

Like look at Cheetah. How is there any fear of cheetah killing her if Diana can just fly away?

Thematically I understand why a lot of people like the Amazon training angle over the goddess' blessings - "every woman is a Wonder Woman" and all that (well, except if you don't have Aphrodite's gift to control your brain energy, so not really) - but I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for it. Doesn't her getting gifts from the goddesses represent the theme of her being the first and only Amazon liberated from trauma better? In the GA origin, she's pretty much just a regular Amazon who trains hard enough to be the best of them. Post-Crisis, Hippolyta wishes for a daughter who never has to understand their pain and the goddesses answer her call by giving her life and extra powers.

Re: flight - I think it fits well into the thematic package. It's symbolic of liberation and I like that it harkens to Inez Haynes Gillmore's Angel Island (the premier influence of the WW story along with Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland), which is about an island of winged women who have their wings clipped by shipwrecked sailors and refuse to let them do the same to their winged daughter.

Also, just thinking practically - what happens in a team book, where a huge portion of the action takes place in the air? Either she's removed from the center of the action half the time or she becomes second-string Batman in a plane. And it's not like she's a specialist like Flash with his speed or Aquaman with water so she just becomes the least useful heavy hitter, and not even the heaviest one - she's never gonna be stronger/tougher than Superman (which leaves the Hulk comparison moot, since he's indisputably the strongest, toughest guy in the Marvel universe) or faster than Flash and she doesn't have Martian Manhunter's whole arsenal of extra powers.

And beyond that:
(1) Most of Superman's villains can't fly - his archenemy doesn't even have any powers. Also Doomsday killed him and he can't fly.

(2) Cheetah's always been presented as pretty significantly weaker than Diana anyway. It's why Rucka made her a sympathetic villain instead, gave Diana emotional investment because she wasn't powerful enough to be a physical threat.

Modern society is still patriarchal. So the Amazons have been dealing with this since ancient times. Like Hera said in Historia, women are still waiting on justice from the systems Zeus represents.

Diana has been fighting the Greek gods since Marston. Clearly he wanted her to do such things. There has never been an issue with her continuing to fight Ares in the modern day, or for the Gods to influence her stories in the modern day, so why should that suddenly change now?

You're the only one who extrapolated "she needs to kill the Gods" from my statement. You know there is any number of ways a big finale conflict can be resolved, right?

+1. It's also the core of Marston's origin - the Amazons are Aphrodite's agents in her eternal battle with Mars/Ares. It's a dialectic of love vs. war and oppression.

Defeating the god of war symbolizes that they've met their purpose. It's not mutually exclusive with changing the world, it runs in direct parallel and it's the last act of violence that marks the end of their mission. I'm also cool with it being Zeus instead of Ares, fulfills a similar purpose where defeating him symbolizes the toppling of oppressive systems.

[Alpha]

Again, no one said anything about killing them. And this was clearly in the context of a movie trilogy, not the main comics.

what point do you think you're making?

She also has super strength and speed because he had those powers as well. Superman doesn't have a patent on flight and so many characters have this ability I don't know why anyone would argue from the perspective that it's just her copying Superman (especially when stuff like her unremarkable civilian identity, wearing primary colors and coming from a technologically advanced civilization are more obvious tropes associated with Superman).

because literally the only reason she has that power is because Superman can fly.

Aside from transportation and evasion in battle with opponents who can't fly or who can and would be much more difficult for her to beat otherwise.

which again, she doesn't need.

Diana is supposed to be the best of the Amazons which doesn't itself require her to be stronger than them.

again, what point are you trying to make with this comment?

Are you trying to convince me Diana should be as strong as most amazons? What are you saying?

None of this is negated by her being empowered by the gods and given flight.

Her powers reflect that she is the strongest thing any of us can be (or beyond what we can be) flight is a random power that has nothing to do with her themes nor with her physical needs as a superhero, specially in the actual stories that have been written over th decades.

Also, the Amazons aren't a hive mind (or at least they shouldn't be). Why would they all come up with the same ideal woman? How is giving Diana flight bringing back the Amazons' trauma?

it doesn't. Nobody said it did

There's no fear of Cheetah killing her period. Whether it's Priscilla Rich who was just a crazy woman in an animal costume or Barbara Minerva with her inconsistent strength and competence level. One of many reasons trying to push Cheetah as Diana's arch villains tends to fall flat (though she is better than most examples others could come up with).

So you're point is?

[Alpha]

Killing the gods doesn't further her goal of changing society in the significant way the big finale of her saga requires.

It has even less symbolic value than if her saga ended with her destroying every sexist song in the planet (which would also be an action with no actual transformative impact on society)

[Agent Z]

what point do you think you're making?

Well, I'm pointing out that no one said anything about killing the gods, so I'm not sure what you think you were saying when you said that.

because literally the only reason she has that power is because Superman can fly.

I refer back to my original comment about why she has super strength and super speed.

which again, she doesn't need.

Now there's a falsehood.

Her powers reflect that she is the strongest thing any of us can be (or beyond what we can be) flight is a random power that has nothing to do with her themes nor with her physical needs as a superhero, specially in the actual stories that have been written over th decades.

Guess you never heard of people dreaming about wanting to fly.

Her being brought to life by her people's beliefs isn't a thing in the comics (nor is getting super powers from beliefs) but you're pushing for that.

it doesn't. Nobody said it did

Then why are you suggesting Diana is the ideal of all the Amazons?

So you're point is?

Yours is?

[Alpha]

Re: flight - I think it fits well into the thematic package. It's symbolic of liberation and I like that it harkens to Inez Haynes Gillmore's Angel Island (the premier influence of the WW story along with Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland), which is about an island of winged women who have their wings clipped by shipwrecked sailors and refuse to let them do the same to their winged daughter.

Ok that does make sense as a thematic reason for her to fly

Blessing of the gods though is again not about her relationship with the amazons which in my opinion is where her powers should come from. The collective belief of her people in her is what brings her to life and gives her her powers. (Not amazon training)

[bardkeep]

Ok that does make sense as a thematic reason for her to fly

Blessing of the gods though is again not about her relationship with the amazons which in my opinion is where her powers should come from. The collective belief of her people in her is what brings her to life and gives her her powers. (Not amazon training)

Okay so it sounds like your issue is with the goddesses having any involvement in their story at all?

Diana's deal has always been that a Greek goddess answered Hippolyta's prayer and brought her to life from a clay statue; all Perez did was change it from Aphrodite alone to several goddesses (+ Hermes, though Nike could just as easily have filled his role). And the involvement of the gods/goddesses has gone up and down over time, but Aphrodite is a recurring presence throughout the GA comics and the Amazons' relationship with the goddesses is explored within the first few pages of Marston's first ever issue.

Saying "she should be born and empowered from the collective belief of their people" is pretty much just your independent idea, which is all well and good if that's what you like but it has no basis in canon.

[Alpha]

Well, I'm pointing out that no one said anything about killing the gods, so I'm not sure what you think you were saying when you said that.

you keep focusing on the idea of killing gods, what I said was killing a religion by defeating the gods, whatever way she does it.

Now there's a falsehood.

nope



Guess you never heard of people dreaming about wanting to fly.

Her being brought to life by her people's beliefs isn't a thing in the comics (nor is getting super powers from beliefs) but you're pushing for that.

yes I'm extrapolating that the actions of Hippolyta should be extended to the whole society rather than extended to the gods

ours is?

You said Cheetah was inneffective as a villain and seemed to be arguing we shouldn't care about that. I'm asking if there's some other kind of point you're trying to make

[Alpha]

Saying "she should be born and empowered from the collective belief of their people" is pretty much just your independent idea, which is all well and good if that's what you like but it has no basis in canon.

Yes that's absolutely true, it's my own desire, not canon in any version of her origin. But the powers in the Marston run did come from belief (not from amazon training). It was from her own belief in herself, and I'm pitching that it should be from the collective power of self actualization, mannifestation from the amazons, like how Hippolyta prayed for Diana to be born

[SiegePerilous02]

Killing the gods doesn't further her goal of changing society in the significant way the big finale of her saga requires.

It has even less symbolic value than if her saga ended with her destroying every sexist song in the planet (which would also be an action with no actual transformative impact on society)

Except nobody is talking about literally killing the gods except you. And you claim the religion is already dead, so how can she kill them harder? How has it prevented the Gods from being antagonists all this time in her stories?

My original comment was about a hypothetical movie abd adapting stuff from Historia. You can't sell a superhero movie on a plot entirely revolving around reforming society. It just wouldn't be made. Epic action scenes and the changing society stuff don't have to be mutually exclusive.