Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[marhawkman]

A likely controversial opinion - I’d be fine if WW couldn’t fly. Sometimes I think I’d prefer it.
But then I guess I’d want like 9,000 other characters (outside of Supers and Shazams) to also not have flight.

The players of DCUO apparently disagree. something like 50% of the player made characters use flight.

[Guy_McNichts]

For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to Zeus emerging as a "big bad" of Wonder Woman.

Ares works as the instigating villain that gets Diana off the island, but once you get passed that initial story, he becomes a more ambiguous figure--especially if you incorporate the Perez ending of her making him realize endless war only results in extinction and he tones himself down. Beyond that, his relationship to Diana is--while antagonistic--is more based on the tension of her seeking peace even though conflict, violence and war is sometimes unavoidable or even necessary--which is where Rucka took him during his first run.

Zeus, on the other hand, can easily slide into the role of representing old, brutish, patriarchal values. An obsolete, backwards thinking old man clinging to his former glory and holding everything back to do so. That's the kind of thing that could, arguably, serve as a better "big bad" for Wonder Woman--progressive challenger of the status quo--to oppose.

If it would come down to Diana fighting her gods, I imagine part of the drama would be which ones side with her and which ones don't. Her matrons like Aphrodite and Demeter and others might take her side. Heracles and Apollo and other would side with Zeus. Ares might stay out of it and simply relish the conflict from the side. Which side Hera takes would be significant. In the classic myths, as much as she hated Zeus' constant cheating on her, she never dared stand against him.
The wild card would be Athena, who is one of Diana's chief supporters, but in the old myths, was typically a daddy's girl who was Zeus' favorite.

Personally, I'm all for Diana overthrowing the gods. As I said in previous posts, the gods--as they're typically depicted in the comics--come across less like supreme beings of immense power and more like obsolete relics that Diana for some reason feels obligated to cater to. And I'm tired of them pretending her ascending to god-hood is an upgrade. She should surpass them by now.

I wouldn't make it the "final battle" of her story...I think that sort of conflict should be reserved for the likes of Circe with more personal foes like Cheetah factoring in. But that's another subject.

The only downside to making Zeus the big bad--as others pointed out--is DC would definitely amp up the father-daughter angle. Zeus doesn't need to be her literal father to work as Wonder Woman's big bad, but I think we all know how the brain-trust at DC would approach it:
"Hmmm...Wonder Woman standing against and overthrowing an overbearing representation of abusive patriarchy? No, that's boring. Make her sad she has to fight her daddy."

[DisneyBoy]

Is it controversial to say that I don't think Steve has much value as a love interest?

He made sense back in the day, for WWII era readers - the All-American soldier who catches the eye of a Goddess type heroine - but in the modern world I feel like there are so many more interesting options as far as love interests go.

[SiegePerilous02]

Is it controversial to say that I don't think Steve has much value as a love interest?

He made sense back in the day, for WWII era readers - the All-American soldier who catches the eye of a Goddess type heroine - but in the modern world I feel like there are so many more interesting options as far as love interests go.

I think as far as cis male love interests go, we are better off with him. They experimented with giving her others in her own title, and they were all duds. And pairing her with any of her JL cohorts is always bad The first movie at least also shows how much appeal he has for the female escapist power fantasy that WW represents: he's a charming, sweet man who caters to the female gaze and can support the heroine without upstaging her.

An alternative love interest from a queer angle would be worth exploring though.

[PopQuezy]

I think as far as cis male love interests go, we are better off with him. They experimented with giving her others in her own title, and they were all duds. And pairing her with any of her JL cohorts is always bad The first movie at least also shows how much appeal he has for the female escapist power fantasy that WW represents: he's a charming, sweet man who caters to the female gaze and can support the heroine without upstaging her.

An alternative love interest from a queer angle would be worth exploring though.

I think there's a lot of untapped potential in their different ideologies. The movie understood their differences and what brought them together. I think the comics should do more with Wonder Woman being a rebel of the system and Trevor being a soldier of the system. This fundamentally causes conflict because Diana is going to question the system; whereas, Steve is going to (blindly?) be devoted to the system. Both can still be dedicated to saving and bettering the world, but how they choose to go about navigating the system and the bureaucracy of equity that Diana hopes to destroy could allow King to explore both their motivations, goals, and limitations as characters.

[Rightoya]

Diana rarely needs flight to solve her issues.

Hulk is one of the most powerful heroes in the Marvel Universe and he doesn't need to fly, why does Diana?

Martian Manhunter rarely uses more than 1 of his many powers at once, does that mean now we should just take away most of his powers?

Hulk is a big green brute without equipment who gets stronger the angryer he gets, he don't resembles Diana at all beyond bein a powerful superhero of the big 2, while Power Princess, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Carol Danvers, Sentry, or even Heralds of Galactus like the Silver Surfer or Stardust, and many others all fit better as Marvel comparisons for Wonder Woman, and most of these more similar superheroes fly. This is almost as logical as saiying Johnny Storm don't needs telepathy, why does Martian Manhunter?

Because Diana flying is a random power she only has because superman also has it

Most superheroes fly because Superman does, and most other superheroes were not even outright stated to be the female answer to Superman by their creators, and even Superman got this random power because of a random decision of a radio show.

She rarely needs it, and it doesn't fit the theme if her being the strongest of amazons.

I've never liked the "each god gave her a blessing" because again, her birth is should be about the scarred womens in Paradise creating the ideal firm of a powerful woman they idealize, without any of the trauma they experienced.

How does having more powers than other amazons not fit her theme of being the strongest amazon?

How are godly blessings a contradiction to the traumas of scarred women?

I mean, I guess I can get used to the thematuc isea that her power of belief being represented by ascension, like how in Peter Pan flying is a manifestation of her belief, but that still feels unnecessary since she diesn't need to fly in irder to defeat her enemies.

Like look at Cheetah. How is there any fear of cheetah killing her if Diana can just fly away?

How many big 2 superheroes do you know who fly, and have only flying villains, and how should Diana even defeat her flying villains if that is impossible without flight according to you?

Her powers reflect that she is the strongest thing any of us can be

That is Batman's theme, and was never Wonder Woman's like even her name should already tell you.

(or beyond what we can be)

Yeah, like how flying without a plane is beyond us.

[Rightoya]

Beyond that, his relationship to Diana is--while antagonistic--is more based on the tension of her seeking peace even though conflict, violence and war is sometimes unavoidable or even necessary--which is where Rucka took him during his first run.

But that sounds a lot more like Athena than like Ares, war but in a more reasonable way is also 1 of her themes after all.

[Alpha]

How are godly blessings a contradiction to the traumas of scarred women?

nobody said it was

How many big 2 superheroes do you know who fly, and have only flying villains, and how should Diana even defeat her flying villains if that is impossible without flight according to you?

same way Hulk and Spider-man do. If there's any superhero that has flight and rarely uses it in a significant way it's definitely Wonder Woman. Nearly everything she does requires no flight at all

That is Batman's theme, and was never Wonder Woman's like even her name should already tell you.

it's what she was designed to be by Marston (and you already stated that we should honor her original purpose though in your opinion it's only in relationship to Superman)
[/QUOTE]

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes that's absolutely true, it's my own desire, not canon in any version of her origin. But the powers in the Marston run did come from belief (not from amazon training). It was from her own belief in herself, and I'm pitching that it should be from the collective power of self actualization, mannifestation from the amazons, like how Hippolyta prayed for Diana to be born

The mental belief in herself was part of the Amazon training.

And Diana's birth didn't come as a manifestation of Hippolyta's belief. Aphrodite and Athena granted her prayers. So the goddesses dishing out favors is right there in Marston's text. Much like Aphrodite seizing the Garden of Eden as a new home for Queen Eve and creating a spirit daughter for her.

same way Hulk and Spider-man do. If there's any superhero that has flight and rarely uses it in a significant way it's definitely Wonder Woman. Nearly everything she does requires no flight at all

Speaking as someone who likes the plane and would prefer to keep it in her history: you can also swap out the plane (and a flightless WW piloting it) with scenes of her flying herself, and not much changes.

At this point, let the woman fly.

[Rightoya]

nobody said it was

What was even your point then?

same way Hulk and Spider-man do.

If there's any superhero that has flight and rarely uses it in a significant way it's definitely Wonder Woman.

Nearly everything she does requires no flight at all

What is stopping Cheetah then?

What are the signifant ways of using flight by Dr Strange, Power Princess, Dr Fate, Shazam, Firestorm, and so on, that i must have clearly missed?

Yeah right, except fighting flying opponents, flying to other places, flying to people to save them, flying objects or other people to other places, stopping things from space, flying through space, and virtually all of the other things most flying superheroes do.

it's what she was designed to be by Marston

(and you already stated that we should honor her original purpose though in your opinion it's only in relationship to Superman)

How does this:

Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.

translate to this:

Her powers reflect that she is the strongest thing any of us can be

How is Superman the strongest thing any of us can be, are you an alien from a far-away solar-system?

[Agent Z]

I think as far as cis male love interests go, we are better off with him. They experimented with giving her others in her own title, and they were all duds. And pairing her with any of her JL cohorts is always bad The first movie at least also shows how much appeal he has for the female escapist power fantasy that WW represents: he's a charming, sweet man who caters to the female gaze and can support the heroine without upstaging her.

An alternative love interest from a queer angle would be worth exploring though.

I'd say Steve isn't necessarily the best choice of cis male love interests so much as he is the least controversial. Superman comes with the baggage of most preferring him with Lois and DC prioritizing him over Diana, Batman has similar issues regarding Selina, Mike Schorr is one the lest memorable parts of Byrne's run, Tom Tressor isn't even a Wonder Woman character and Trevor Barnes... well, let's just say I don't think he'd attract half the bile he did if he were a white man.

I generally ship Diana with Artemis and find Steve works better in a platonic relationship with Diana. Otherwise, I am perfectly fine with the WW franchise ignoring romance entirely as it has never been a strength of the writers for the most part.

[Donpayne]

I'd say Steve isn't necessarily the best choice of cis male love interests so much as he is the least controversial. Superman comes with the baggage of most preferring him with Lois and DC prioritizing him over Diana, Batman has similar issues regarding Selina, Mike Schorr is one the lest memorable parts of Byrne's run, Tom Tressor isn't even a Wonder Woman character and Trevor Barnes... well, let's just say I don't think he'd attract half the bile he did if he were a white man.

I generally ship Diana with Artemis and find Steve works better in a platonic relationship with Diana. Otherwise, I am perfectly fine with the WW franchise ignoring romance entirely as it has never been a strength of the writers for the most part.

Exactly why I want to see them do something about it. He has history and backstory that can mined deep. Like Mel Dyer says, make us invest and care in his struggle. And as SiegePerilous02 mentioned, Steve can be the quintessential romantic interest who doesn't usurp the core story and yet fulfils Diana's emotional and physical needs which are as as normal in the real world as they are in a superhero world. I have heard the arguments of Steve's worthiness, I believe a normal relationship is something everyone desires. You fight villains and fiends all day, maybe you don't need to have the stress in your bedroom.

Their dynamic in the first movie was perfect and the contrast yet support they bring to each other can be immensely satisfying if written correctly and that's the challenge I want some writer to take up. Having a chill love life is desirable, I speak from experience ��

[Agent Z]

Exactly why I want to see them do something about it. He has history and backstory that can mined deep. Like Mel Dyer says, make us invest and care in his struggle. And as SiegePerilous02 mentioned, Steve can be the quintessential romantic interest who doesn't usurp the core story and yet fulfils Diana's emotional and physical needs which are as as normal in the real world as they are in a superhero world. I have heard the arguments of Steve's worthiness, I believe a normal relationship is something everyone desires. You fight villains and fiends all day, maybe you don't need to have the stress in your bedroom.

Their dynamic in the first movie was perfect and the contrast yet support they bring to each other can be immensely satisfying if written correctly and that's the challenge I want some writer to take up. Having a chill love life is desirable, I speak from experience ��

You don't need to make Steve be Diana's boyfriend to develop him as a character. As much as people dislike him erasing their romantic relationship, Perez arguably did more to develop him than most writers ever have. The first movie did a good job with him only for the sequel to undo all the good will. Steve been as vital or well received as a romantic partner as Lois Lane or Mary-Jane Watson, and this is with over 100 appearances in that role and being adapted more than any other WW woman character save for Diana. If anything, a normal relationship with someone else, preferably a civilian, is what he needs and would be far less stressful than being with Diana given the insanity that follows the average superhero.

[SiegePerilous02]

You don't need to make Steve be Diana's boyfriend to develop him as a character. As much as people dislike him erasing their romantic relationship, Perez arguably did more to develop him than most writers ever have. The first movie did a good job with him only for the sequel to undo all the good will. Steve been as vital or well received as a romantic partner as Lois Lane or Mary-Jane Watson, and this is with over 100 appearances in that role and being adapted more than any other WW woman character save for Diana. If anything, a normal relationship with someone else, preferably a civilian, is what he needs and would be far less stressful than being with Diana given the insanity that follows the average superhero.

Perez didn't really develop him as a character though. His biggest contribution was opening the door for Diana Trevor, then it seemed Perez didn't know what to do with him after that. He faded into the background and became the straight man/roommate to Hermes for the rest of the run. You could lift him and Etta out of the run and it wouldn't change too much for the most part (dragging Etta down with him into irrelevance has also always been one of the worse consequences of that marriage)

Why does he need a relationship with a civilian? On average he doesn't seem any more stressed out by a superhero love interest than Lois or others do, probably less so.

[Agent Z]

Perez didn't really develop him as a character though. His biggest contribution was opening the door for Diana Trevor, then it seemed Perez didn't know what to do with him after that. He faded into the background and became the straight man/roommate to Hermes for the rest of the run. You could lift him and Etta out of the run and it wouldn't change too much for the most part (dragging Etta down with him into irrelevance has also always been one of the worse consequences of that marriage)

Well, what was his major contribution to the story before the Perez run? Outside of introducing Diana to the world outside of Themyscira, that is.

Why does he need a relationship with a civilian? On average he doesn't seem any more stressed out by a superhero love interest than Lois or others do, probably less so.

There's the Wilson run. His and Diana's relationship also didn't seem too healthy in the Silver Age.