Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Stanlos]

Any opinion on this?

I say thee, YAAAAAAAYYYYYYY! No more of the stench of New Poopy-2!

[bardkeep]

Having just read the first couple issues of Joshua Williams' Superman run, I've realized that as much as it sucks dealing with so much inconsistency, I think I prefer that over too much stagnation. I would be so damn bored if Diana had the equivalent of "working at the Planet with Lois and Jimmy; saving Metropolis from aliens; dealing with calculating, jealous Lex; occasional break for a wholesome Superman moment."

I like that we don't always know what love interest(s) to expect, where she'll live, what her life will look like outside of superheroics, who's going to be in her stories, etc. Flawed as the first film was, I like that the story had actual stakes that wouldn't have worked if we knew what the status quo needed to be (e.g. her love interest was actually allowed to die, we never found out if she'd ever be able to return to Themyscira, we didn't know if Ares was real until the end). And I like that we have no idea what to expect in Tom King's upcoming run or in the new DCU. In contrast, we may not know the exact approach James Gunn's going to do with Superman, but we do know what the set-up and end state will be - pretty much exactly what they were in '78.

The problem is that because she doesn't have a goal status quo, there are foundational things that must be there for her to be WW (general lore, basic characterization, base powers), and those are the things that writers have butchered.

[Alpha]

I really do wish there was an evolving status quo for Wonder Woman over time. Something being built up over the decades of her career in universe, that showed her growing impact in this world, and how she herself would change progressively.

What is Diana in year 5 VS in year 10 VS in year 20, all up to the end. Earth One volume 3 was certainly one take on it, but it doesn't work for the DC universe.

[Stanlos]

I really do wish there was an evolving status quo for Wonder Woman over time. Something being built up over the decades of her career in universe, that showed her growing impact in this world, and how she herself would change progressively.

What is Diana in year 5 VS in year 10 VS in year 20, all up to the end. Earth One volume 3 was certainly one take on it, but it doesn't work for the DC universe.

It feels like past editorial has been very reluctant to do that lest it cast negative light on the other members of the Trinity. (And of course that concern has not been reciprocal)

There have been many writers (and artists) who have pitched such scenarios and were #Noped. You can see a hint of that fear manifest in the way fans reacted to Adventures of Superman 636 and Sacrifice regarding the rift in the Trinity. It is another case where the character's design is ahead of the world at large. If Black Adam had had those actions and opinions fandom would not have blinked twice

[Alpha]

It feels like past editorial has been very reluctant to do that lest it cast negative light on the other members of the Trinity. (And of course that concern has not been reciprocal)

There have been many writers (and artists) who have pitched such scenarios and were #Noped. You can see a hint of that fear manifest in the way fans reacted to Adventures of Superman 636 and Sacrifice regarding the rift in the Trinity. It is another case where the character's design is ahead of the world at large. If Black Adam had had those actions and opinions fandom would not have blinked twice

Sorry I'm confused. What does the trinity have to do with how Diana evolves?

[Stanlos]

Sorry I'm confused. What does the trinity have to do with how Diana evolves?

Your question and position SHOULD BE exactly how it is. Diana shining should NOT diminish the other Trinity members nor any other hero.

But look at the way the social and political dialogue is going in the states? Unfortunately people are STILL weird about the Feminine. There's a lot of the M word baked in. It is part of why TPTB were so hesitant about Diana being DCs ultimate warrior and having odds to win over any in a fight. Several writers were okay and it made it into several stories. But that darn Dan...

[Perseus]

Your question and position SHOULD BE exactly how it is. Diana shining should NOT diminish the other Trinity members nor any other hero.

But look at the way the social and political dialogue is going in the states? Unfortunately people are STILL weird about the Feminine. There's a lot of the M word baked in. It is part of why TPTB were so hesitant about Diana being DCs ultimate warrior and having odds to win over any in a fight. Several writers were okay and it made it into several stories. But that darn Dan...

TPTB?

Also agree with you that most of mainstream writers are too afraid to put money where their mouth is, so Diana is reduced to lipservice regarding her abilities.

[wonder39]

I say thee, YAAAAAAAYYYYYYY! No more of the stench of New Poopy-2!

" ...and the Amazonians"

Cripes, I wish people would get this right. Amazons. Not Amazonians.

This is from a book? 9_9

[HestiasHearth]

TPTB?

Also agree with you that most of mainstream writers are too afraid to put money where their mouth is, so Diana is reduced to lipservice regarding her abilities.

The powers that be.
Meaning the entity/organization/community/corporation that decides what is allowed or not allowed in regard to Wonder Woman stories.

[Alpha]

Your question and position SHOULD BE exactly how it is. Diana shining should NOT diminish the other Trinity members nor any other hero.

But look at the way the social and political dialogue is going in the states? Unfortunately people are STILL weird about the Feminine. There's a lot of the M word baked in. It is part of why TPTB were so hesitant about Diana being DCs ultimate warrior and having odds to win over any in a fight. Several writers were okay and it made it into several stories. But that darn Dan...

That has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I was asking how Diana is in year 5 vs in year 10 vs in year 20 vs in year 30, all the way to the end. How does she evolve, and how does her world evolve.

[Agent Z]

It feels like past editorial has been very reluctant to do that lest it cast negative light on the other members of the Trinity. (And of course that concern has not been reciprocal)

There have been many writers (and artists) who have pitched such scenarios and were #Noped. You can see a hint of that fear manifest in the way fans reacted to Adventures of Superman 636 and Sacrifice regarding the rift in the Trinity. It is another case where the character's design is ahead of the world at large. If Black Adam had had those actions and opinions fandom would not have blinked twice

Ironically, Superman and Batman wouldn't have been made to look bad at all if Rucka had been allowed to do the story he wanted.

[HotBoy]

Ironically, Superman and Batman wouldn't have been made to look bad at all if Rucka had been allowed to do the story he wanted.

I remember during the Jimenez run, Phil was told to draw Superman in particular ways because he could not be made to seem weak or vulnerable post-9/11 for patriotic propaganda reasons.

[Alpha]

Boy, people here will turn any subject into complaining about the Trinity won't they?

No interest in talking about Diana herself? Cmon guys, how do you think she oughta change over her decades? Don't you think it's a topic worth discussing?

How is she in year 5 vs in Year 10, vs in year 20, vs the end of her life?.

And how do you think her world in general should evolve across that time?

[bardkeep]

Boy, people here will turn any subject into complaining about the Trinity won't they?

No interest in talking about Diana herself? Cmon guys, how do you think she oughta change over her decades? Don't you think it's a topic worth discussing?

How is she in year 5 vs in Year 10, vs in year 20, vs the end of her life?.

And how do you think her world in general should evolve across that time?

The problem relates to the Trinity, though. If Diana's mission leads to significant material change, what does that say about Superman or Batman? The whole concept of a connected universe goes against her design. It's a conservative type of storytelling (and I mean narratively, not just politically - everything has to fit within a fixed status quo) and she was built for progress.

It's a shame that the only notable writer to really recognize and explore that was Grant Morrison in Earth One because they really fumbled the bag, but one thing I actually really rocked with was the idea of Diana's mission ending with her making her own clay baby. A huge part of Diana is the idea that the Amazons suffered so she wouldn't have to, and I love the idea of her paying it forward by enduring through the world's violent resistance to change so her daughter doesn't have to. It's also why I don't like the idea of her having a kid in continuity.

But between the beginning and the end? No opinion. Her stories should respond to the world around them and we only have up until today to work with. Just as an example, (Post-Crisis) Rucka's approach to Diana's political life worked well in the early/mid-aughts West Wing era of "they go low, we go high" liberal optimism, but in today's much more cynical, disillusioned world I think she needs to be more revolutionary and her stories more cathartic.

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem relates to the Trinity, though. If Diana's mission leads to significant material change, what does that say about Superman or Batman?

Would her enacting significant change prevent them from enacting changes of their own? Superman is supposed to inspire the idealized future of the Legion of Superheroes after all. And he wasn't designed with a shared universe in mind either.