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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Azzarello really is bizarro Marston. (Of course, Morrison's Earth One is also bizarro Marston. Now I'm afraid some future writer will attempt to pick up all the bad ideas from both of those runs.)
    In fairness, there were bad ideas in Marston's run. Women being superior to men is not true feminism so the basic idea of calling that out is not a bad one. They just went overboard with it, more so Azzarello than Morrison. The latter at least showed what Hercules did to them to justify their thinking, and they are also ancient and not part of our society so they are not going to have PC views about our world. And there are only two overly hostile Amazons in that book, Hippolyta and Mala, and there is plenty of precedent in canon for the former's behavior (she did after all wipe her daughter's memories of Steve's death without her consent to spare her from grief, among other examples). Once Diana allowed the whole conflict to be resolved peacefully, all threats towards Steve ceased and I cannot imagine the New 52 Amazons doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    The amazzons were a caricature of modern men-hating feminists, the crazies that pour bleach on the crotches of men who spread their legs on the subway and other crazy things like that. The idea was to have Diana bring much-much-needed reform to them which, to my mind, made Wonder Woman so much more relevant as a women's icon in the 21st century than whacking a red penis monster and the XY misogynist gang lol
    Such a depiction is not necessarily more relevant. If Diana is shown to be the only good thing to come off of Paradise Island, then the whole mythos is a joke and misses the point of Marston's original intentions with subverting the Amazon myth. Especially when a writer doesn't even deem it necessary to show why/how they developed their attitudes, Morrison at least showed Hercules and his armies herding them into rape camps.

    If you want over the top man-hating Amazons, that's what Bana-Mighdall and Venturia are for, don't use Paradise Island. And the former in the Perez run had more exploration of motives than the New 52 Amazons did.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    In fairness, there were bad ideas in Marston's run. Women being superior to men is not true feminism so the basic idea of calling that out is not a bad one. They just went overboard with it, more so Azzarello than Morrison. The latter at least showed what Hercules did to them to justify their thinking, and they are also ancient and not part of our society so they are not going to have PC views about our world. And there are only two overly hostile Amazons in that book, Hippolyta and Mala, and there is plenty of precedent in canon for the former's behavior (she did after all wipe her daughter's memories of Steve's death without her consent to spare her from grief, among other examples). Once Diana allowed the whole conflict to be resolved peacefully, all threats towards Steve ceased and I cannot imagine the New 52 Amazons doing that.
    Oh, there are certainly bad ideas and things that haven't aged well at all in Marston's original run. His racism and his gender essentialism are probably the two big ones.

    But what both Azzarello and Morrison did was take the good things about Marston's concepts, and turning them inside out, instead of taking the bad things about his run and either fixing or critiquing them.

    Marston had a enlightened utopia where every woman could unlock superhuman powers, which could make scientific breakthroughs, and was sex positive. Azzarello stuck them in the bronze age and made them into murderous sex pirates. Morrison made them bigoted and put far more focus on submission than love.

    Marston had Diana come from a woman's longing for a child and her power come from training. Azzarello had it come from a tryst with the original rapist(tm). Morrison had her origin come from the rape of another rapist (two wrongs do not make a right) as a vehicle of revenge, only to have Hippolyta give up revenge due to love for Diana but at the same time smothering Diana as a person. I'm not sure which version there I find the most distasteful.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Oh, there are certainly bad ideas and things that haven't aged well at all in Marston's original run. His racism and his gender essentialism are probably the two big ones.

    But what both Azzarello and Morrison did was take the good things about Marston's concepts, and turning them inside out, instead of taking the bad things about his run and either fixing or critiquing them.

    Marston had a enlightened utopia where every woman could unlock superhuman powers, which could make scientific breakthroughs, and was sex positive. Azzarello stuck them in the bronze age and made them into murderous sex pirates. Morrison made them bigoted and put far more focus on submission than love.

    Marston had Diana come from a woman's longing for a child and her power come from training. Azzarello had it come from a tryst with the original rapist(tm). Morrison had her origin come from the rape of another rapist (two wrongs do not make a right) as a vehicle of revenge, only to have Hippolyta give up revenge due to love for Diana but at the same time smothering Diana as a person. I'm not sure which version there I find the most distasteful.
    In Earth One, only Mala and Hippolyta are bigoted. Hippolyta not entirely without reason considering what she has suffered in Mans World. Otherwise Nubia and Althea are not bigoted, the New Sparta Amazons are stand ins for the Bana so them hating men is hardly an issue, and the art explicitly shows the Amazons in the crowd being interested/excited at seeing Diana successfully heal Steve. Hating and killing men is not a cultural norm for them the way it is for the New 52 Amazons.

    Hippolyta does not rape Hercules. She steals his genetic material, but what does he care? He's dead. Her initial motivations I do not like, but her motives cool early enough for Diana never to be aware of them. She has always smothered Diana. She has historically tried to prevent her grown ass daughter from deciding her own fate. They always butt heads to a degree, they need to for their dynamic to be interesting.

  4. #49
    Spectacular Member VonHammersmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Such a depiction is not necessarily more relevant. If Diana is shown to be the only good thing to come off of Paradise Island, then the whole mythos is a joke and misses the point of Marston's original intentions with subverting the Amazon myth. Especially when a writer doesn't even deem it necessary to show why/how they developed their attitudes, Morrison at least showed Hercules and his armies herding them into rape camps.

    If you want over the top man-hating Amazons, that's what Bana-Mighdall and Venturia are for, don't use Paradise Island. And the former in the Perez run had more exploration of motives than the New 52 Amazons did.
    Yes it’s very much relevant because feminist orthodoxy, today, in the west, is cancer that preys on weak minds and relieving women of this horrible disease is perhaps the most important thing that Wonder Woman can do for womanhood. I’m not saying lets roll back women’s rights, only that when you're going after “manspreaders” in the subway and calling yourself a “survivor” of a butt slap, you're not well in the head

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    Yes it’s very much relevant because feminist orthodoxy, today, in the west, is cancer that preys on weak minds and relieving women of this horrible disease is perhaps the most important thing that Wonder Woman can do for womanhood. I’m not saying lets roll back women’s rights, only that when you're going after “manspreaders” in the subway and calling yourself a “survivor” of a butt slap, you're not well in the head
    I don't think taking out our annoyance at some of the real life extreme feminists on Wonder Woman and her people, and the message they are meant to convey, is a remotely a good idea.

    They survived more than a slap on the butt, they were enslaved, raped, had their reputations slandered and their homes destroyed. If they have biases against the outside world, they are understandable, and they have been shown to still be willing to open their shores against after consideration. They are not obligated to do so, though. And they need to be a positive influence on the only major female superhero we have. We don't have many stories like that in the Big Two, the last thing we need is to get rid of it just because some anti-manspreaders are pissing us off. The Amazons themselves would find such a complaint laughable as well.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think taking out our annoyance at some of the real life extreme feminists on Wonder Woman and her people, and the message they are meant to convey, is a remotely a good idea.

    They survived more than a slap on the butt, they were enslaved, raped, had their reputations slandered and their homes destroyed. If they have biases against the outside world, they are understandable, and they have been shown to still be willing to open their shores against after consideration. They are not obligated to do so, though. And they need to be a positive influence on the only major female superhero we have. We don't have many stories like that in the Big Two, the last thing we need is to get rid of it just because some anti-manspreaders are pissing us off. The Amazons themselves would find such a complaint laughable as well.
    I think what he's getting at is that the story needs to reflect that. It needs to be rooted in actual issues and reasonable motivations. Part of what I liked about the DCAU story with Aresia(Fury). It doesn't go into much detail, but it's not really long enough for that. Aresia's trying to wipe out all the men in the world since in her flawed reasoning men=bad, women=good. One of the highlights is a scene where Aresia is looking at the aftermath of her plague and expecting women to celebrate but instead she sees them franticly trying to save the men she'd infected. then WW shows up and does a short speech about living together in peace.

    It also has a few other neat moments. Like Hawkgirl talking with WW about her take on the issue. "Don't knock it until you've tried it." heh. It also had Hippolyta talk about how one of the men Aresia had been shipwrecked with died to save her. And how Aresia's ideology wasn't really what the Amazons believed. There was also a neat scene in the ending with a 3-on-3 fight between WW, Hawkgirl, and Hipployta vs Aresia, Star Sapphire, and Tsukuri.

  7. #52
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    She doesn't have to be super-powerful to be smart and up for just about any challenge.

    Also, Diana should have no problem relying on her friends. It's at the core of the Martson Wonder Woman AND at the idea of being raised by DCU Amazons. Part of what makes WW radical is that she's both a collective and a leader. She's not the individualistic, arrogant, "god-damned" Batman.

  8. #53
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    Now, proviso, I haven't read a massive amount of WW, but I guess my potentially controversial opinion is that the Amazons are generally written as quite unlikable. Perhaps that's my feeling towards all warrior peoples (The spartans are douchebags, too), but I've never felt any great affection for the Amazons outside of Diana herself. Maybe it's the isolation from the rest of the world that makes them almost irrelevant to the DCU if you don't read WW comics. If they're not integrated in some fashion with the world outside of the bubble of the WW comics, then their absence can't be felt if they were to suddenly leave or be destroyed.

    I think there was a period in the books when Themyscira had embassies and the like, and I prefer that take than the isolationsist island of perfection approach. The Amazons should be progressive, reaching out into the world to change it with love. They should be a force we feel and appreciate, and one we miss if it's absent. at the moment, outside of WW books, the DC earth wouldn't feel any different at all if there were no Amazons, and that's just plain wrong.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    Now, proviso, I haven't read a massive amount of WW, but I guess my potentially controversial opinion is that the Amazons are generally written as quite unlikable. Perhaps that's my feeling towards all warrior peoples (The spartans are douchebags, too), but I've never felt any great affection for the Amazons outside of Diana herself. Maybe it's the isolation from the rest of the world that makes them almost irrelevant to the DCU if you don't read WW comics. If they're not integrated in some fashion with the world outside of the bubble of the WW comics, then their absence can't be felt if they were to suddenly leave or be destroyed.

    I think there was a period in the books when Themyscira had embassies and the like, and I prefer that take than the isolationsist island of perfection approach. The Amazons should be progressive, reaching out into the world to change it with love. They should be a force we feel and appreciate, and one we miss if it's absent. at the moment, outside of WW books, the DC earth wouldn't feel any different at all if there were no Amazons, and that's just plain wrong.
    The Amazons' isolation wasn't much of a thing until the New 52. It ended as early as the sixth issue of Marston's run and Perez had them interacting with the outside world in his run and others followed suit. Them having a lack of presence outside their books is no different from how the other Big 2 books operate most of the time. The Green Lanterns' adventures mostly affect their own books for instance. Unless it's a major crossover, you're unlikely to see impact outside of the main book in question.

    If you're reading WW comics then the Amazons matter as much as anything else. They don't have to appear in every other book and frankly they are better off being properly developed and utilized in the WW comic than being used as fodder in a crossover event.

    And the Amazons aren't just warriors.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-10-2018 at 04:14 AM.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    Now, proviso, I haven't read a massive amount of WW, but I guess my potentially controversial opinion is that the Amazons are generally written as quite unlikable. Perhaps that's my feeling towards all warrior peoples (The spartans are douchebags, too), but I've never felt any great affection for the Amazons outside of Diana herself. Maybe it's the isolation from the rest of the world that makes them almost irrelevant to the DCU if you don't read WW comics. If they're not integrated in some fashion with the world outside of the bubble of the WW comics, then their absence can't be felt if they were to suddenly leave or be destroyed.
    I don't think anyone here can deny that if Wonder Woman has been ill-treated in most runs, then the Amazons have fared even worse. And constructing an advanced all-women civilisation of immortals that has developed for at least 3,000 years is no small undertaking, and outside of the means of most specialist science fiction writers. Much easier to make them into generic women warriors.

    There are a couple of exceptions. Renae de Liz had a wonderful depiction of them in The Legend of Wonder Woman. I do have some objections to it, but like Gail Simone's The Circle it managed to depict a loving and supporting community that still had tensions and fissure lines. I think the movie was on the right track, but it played up the warrior part of their society too much (likely because of time constraints).

  11. #56
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    Diana doesn't have to be in the Justice League and some of her worst treatment has been in those stories.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    She doesn't have to be super-powerful to be smart and up for just about any challenge.

    Also, Diana should have no problem relying on her friends. It's at the core of the Martson Wonder Woman AND at the idea of being raised by DCU Amazons. Part of what makes WW radical is that she's both a collective and a leader. She's not the individualistic, arrogant, "god-damned" Batman.
    But she doesn't need to be weaker either. It cuts both ways. Wonder Woman was created to be super powerful. So it should be respected by all writers.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana doesn't have to be in the Justice League and some of her worst treatment has been in those stories.
    I don't think this is a controversial opinion.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    I don't think this is a controversial opinion.
    I don't see people express it often. The first half of my opinion anyway.

  15. #60
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    Cheetah shouldnt really be a villain

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