Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[John Venus]

I guess I don't really see an issue with the amazons being able to procreate if they want to..... I also don't like the implication that to be an amazon you'd have to be barren. Removing an entire group of people's ability to procreate has frankly a very worse implication then someone's mom being amazon. I understand not liking the trope because it plays into the mother not being that important comparative to the father, but that's a reason to be mad at poor writers not really a justification to make an entire race impotent. Like, to be blunt here, this is a genocidal talking point. I get the amazons being immortal, they aren't really in practice, and the well of souls and all that but that is still not enough to remove the ability to have children from an entire group of people. This is not a hill that I want to climb, roll down on, or fight on, it's just not worth it to me.

I will also say that The Circle was not implying that the amazons were barren but that there blatantly was NO way for the women to have a child outside of leaving and you know doing the thing or literal divine intervention. Which the Gods wouldn't give to just anyone. One of the things that I like about story telling is character choice. And when writing specifically about women and womanhood is the choice of motherhood. Obviously, this is the same with manhood and fatherhood. The key word is choice, now not all women have that and that doesn't make them any less of a woman. However, that is an individual basis and not an entire race.

Like I said, it doesn't solve the 'Amazon baby mama' problem but it does open up several story telling possibilities; it makes Diana's birth all the more significant and raises the question of what the significance of having a child in a society that has no need to procreate. The Amazons were given powerful bodies by the Goddesses, their numbers can be replenished via the Well of Souls, so I can imagine the Goddesses also being like 'childbirth? unnecessary, lets just take that feature out'.

[marhawkman]

Like I said, it doesn't solve the 'Amazon baby mama' problem but it does open up several story telling possibilities; it makes Diana's birth all the more significant and raises the question of what the significance of having a child in a society that has no need to procreate. The Amazons were given powerful bodies by the Goddesses, their numbers can be replenished via the Well of Souls, so I can imagine the Goddesses also being like 'childbirth? unnecessary, lets just take that feature out'.

Some versions had them raise children who washed up on the beach.

[Perseus]

Like I said, it doesn't solve the 'Amazon baby mama' problem but it does open up several story telling possibilities; it makes Diana's birth all the more significant and raises the question of what the significance of having a child in a society that has no need to procreate. The Amazons were given powerful bodies by the Goddesses, their numbers can be replenished via the Well of Souls, so I can imagine the Goddesses also being like 'childbirth? unnecessary, lets just take that feature out'.

I think you can have that story telling possibility without removing an entire group of people's ability to procreate. Having no need and literally not being able to are two different things. If the goddesses did remove the ability to procreate entirely and one of the defining features of being an amazon is not having the ability to have children, if they wanted to, then the Goddesses to me would be genocidal monsters who don't actually care about women and their freedom of choice. This is just not something that is morally right to me, it's not empowering to be denied a thing that was naturally yours before a deity decided to take it away. And it doesn't solve the problem you had, so I just don't see it as a viable route to take.

The amazons are powerful and ageless, but immortality has not been proven in decades of practice.

Diana's creation is already significant. She is by all intents and purposes a miracle. A literal divine ritual that Hippolyta was given the ability to perform via the patrons and is never going to happen again. She also symbolizes change and a new coming for the amazons. Like, that's all you really need to tell a compelling story.

[Perseus]

Being myth accurate doesn't mean anything unless you have something to say about the myth/ritual/culture at the time. This is a problem that Azzarello had in his story with the amazons specifically, he fell for the propaganda that the Greeks and Romans used to justify they're subjugation of women by turning the amazons into the bronze age, manhating, barbarians they were characterized as. And all he had to say for it was that Diana is just that much more special because she isn't like those amazons, she's a good one.

Ex. I want Hippolyta and max 4 other amazons to be daughters of Ares. Is it myth accurate? Yes. But I also want to use it to talk about the messiness and grey of life, that an amazon queen could have fallen in love with a god of war. That Ares isn't this purely demonic/satanic figure like some basic bitch evil lord. That family can be messy and how does someone (Diana and her mother and her mother's sisters) navigate that.

[Gaius]

Being myth accurate doesn't mean anything unless you have something to say about the myth/ritual/culture at the time. This is a problem that Azzarello had in his story with the amazons specifically, he fell for the propaganda that the Greeks and Romans used to justify they're subjugation of women by turning the amazons into the bronze age, manhating, barbarians they were characterized as. And all he had to say for it was that Diana is just that much more special because she isn't like those amazons, she's a good one.

Ex. I want Hippolyta and max 4 other amazons to be daughters of Ares. Is it myth accurate? Yes. But I also want to use it to talk about the messiness and grey of life, that an amazon queen could have fallen in love with a god of war. That Ares isn't this purely demonic/satanic figure like some basic bitch evil lord. That family can be messy and how does someone (Diana and her mother and her mother's sisters) navigate that.

Yeah, that's what gets me about the defense of the New 52 Amazons being more "mythically accurate". Like that's specifically not the point?

Mythically accurate Wonder Woman Amazons is just regression and less forward looking than a dude from the '40s.

[Zagre]

Yeah, that's what gets me about the defense of the New 52 Amazons being more "mythically accurate". Like that's specifically not the point?

Mythically accurate Wonder Woman Amazons is just regression and less forward looking than a dude from the '40s.

Plus it makes the character much less unique creatively speaking. I'm not interested in yet-another generic myth inspired story about public domain characters unless you actually know how to creatively mix Wondy's lore into it.

[Perseus]

Plus it makes the character much less unique creatively speaking. I'm not interested in yet-another generic myth inspired story about public domain characters unless you actually know how to creatively mix Wondy's lore into it.

This is a solid take, most people tend to pendulum swing between extremes. There needs to be a balance between her lore and original ideas with the myth and fantasy.

[Agent Z]

Azzarello's run is only accurate to the myths in the most superficial way. His take on Ares and the existence of the First Born alone show how different it is from the myths.

[HsssH]

WW will always be tied to public domain characters due to Ares and Circe.

[marhawkman]

WW will always be tied to public domain characters due to Ares and Circe.

Well anything using myths is like that....

[HsssH]

I think you could it downplay more if Ares wasn't basicly her main villain with Circe probably being in the third place after Cheetah?

[John Venus]

I think you can have that story telling possibility without removing an entire group of people's ability to procreate. Having no need and literally not being able to are two different things. If the goddesses did remove the ability to procreate entirely and one of the defining features of being an amazon is not having the ability to have children, if they wanted to, then the Goddesses to me would be genocidal monsters who don't actually care about women and their freedom of choice. This is just not something that is morally right to me, it's not empowering to be denied a thing that was naturally yours before a deity decided to take it away. And it doesn't solve the problem you had, so I just don't see it as a viable route to take.

The amazons are powerful and ageless, but immortality has not been proven in decades of practice.

Diana's creation is already significant. She is by all intents and purposes a miracle. A literal divine ritual that Hippolyta was given the ability to perform via the patrons and is never going to happen again. She also symbolizes change and a new coming for the amazons. Like, that's all you really need to tell a compelling story.

I can understand the point of thinking that it's unnecessary. But I'm not sure I would call it genocidal.

[Gaius]

Artemis and Jason is the best romantic relationship a Wonder character has been involved in.

[Alpha]

Artemis and Jason is the best romantic relationship a Wonder character has been involved in.

Jason is a douche and he looks like one

EDIT: I meant modern Jason. Grant Morrison's take on Jason Todd was pretty compelling to me.

And having said that, I agree that Diana has never been in an amazing relationship

[king of hybrids]

Wait, there are people who consider Azz’s take on the Amazons to be myth accurate, when to my knowledge the mythological amazons had a whole means of procreating and dealing with male children that didn’t involve piracy, rape, murder and selling babies into slavery (like, he w do you manage to make them look worse than how the Ancient Greeks did it)

Zeus-daddy is far more defensible. And that’s a very low bar