Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Koriand'r]

"iconic: ​ī-ˈkä-nik adjective - widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence"

I totally disagree with the "especially for distinctive excellence." Nobody can tell me that Pepsi, big macs, Twinkies and Rob Liefeld art are not iconic parts of our culture, but are we sure that those are known for "distinctive excellence"? Hades no.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iconic

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[superduperman]

New 52 Wonder Woman was pretty good. At least the early volumes.

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

I think Wonder Woman should be both a Warrior and an Ambassador/Diplomat, and as such always be looking for ways to help people (even enemies) but still also be willing to put down a threat... She should have an idyllic police mentality.

This should not only set her apart from superman and batman, but put them sometimes at odds... "Why did you kill that man?" "Did you see what he did to that child?" "But who made you judge jury and executioner?" "UM... gods did, this lasso sees the truth, and the truth is he was a monster, and was never going to be better so I killed him" should be as much as "why didn't you kill him, he committed this horrible act?" "He had a chance, he was lead a stray and I can fix that. I can teach him"

[Agent Z]

I think Wonder Woman should be both a Warrior and an Ambassador/Diplomat, and as such always be looking for ways to help people (even enemies) but still also be willing to put down a threat... She should have an idyllic police mentality.

This should not only set her apart from superman and batman, but put them sometimes at odds... "Why did you kill that man?" "Did you see what he did to that child?" "But who made you judge jury and executioner?" "UM... gods did, this lasso sees the truth, and the truth is he was a monster, and was never going to be better so I killed him" should be as much as "why didn't you kill him, he committed this horrible act?" "He had a chance, he was lead a stray and I can fix that. I can teach him"

This has been done a few times.

And while we're on the subject, thinking that Diana never kills is just as ignorant as thinking she's a bloodthirsty sadist just because she allows the use of lethal force at times. You don't get to brag about your superior knowledge of Wonder Woman's character if you think Geoff Johns of all people was the first to have her kill villains.

[Agent Z]

I really, really hate to say this but among the Trinity franchises, Wonder Woman is the worst at handling non-white characters. Egg Fu, I Ching, the Bana Migdhall, Trevor Barnes's death and the way Yara was handled.

[HsssH]

I think we are still trying to figure out how to use women.

[Agent Z]

I think we are still trying to figure out how to use women.

.....What?

[HsssH]

I wouldn't say that WW franchise is any better at using women either. Sure, we have many female characters but most of them are overshadowed by few women from Batman and Superman as well.

[bardkeep]

I really, really hate to say this but among the Trinity franchises, Wonder Woman is the worst at handling non-white characters. Egg Fu, I Ching, the Bana Migdhall, Trevor Barnes's death and the way Yara was handled.

This was maybe true in the past, though I'd hesitate to include characters like I Ching and Egg Fu because those were the '60s-'70s. But the WW franchise has made actual efforts to improve and now it's FAR more diverse and inclusive than pretty much any other big DC franchise. Most of the Amazons in current canon are nonwhite (including the Themyscirans) and at least half of the supporting cast is nonwhite - Etta, Nubia, Philippus, Yara, recent major supporting characters like Faruka and Siggy, the newest prominent Amazon in Bia, etc.

Yara definitely could've been handled better, but a white writer creating a character based on a culture they're not familiar with and failing to explore that culture isn't exactly unique. All she needs to fix her is a a turn with a writer who has some tie to indigenous Brazilian culture. Other than that, nonwhite characters get a lot of well-placed focus - we're about to get an ongoing about the Amazons with an ensemble cast that only includes one white character and she isn't even native to the Wonder-verse.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and there's always room to improve, but the Batman and Superman franchises barely even HAVE nonwhite characters. Batman has Cass Cain (who's only just getting more exposure), arguably Damian (who's supposed to be half-Arab but is usually depicted as white), and two very minor supporting characters in Lucian and Jace. Superman has Kenan and Perry White, both very minor supporting characters. And...that's really it. MAWS introduced more diversity into the Superman franchise with Asian Lois and Black Jimmy, but that hasn't made its way to any other media. Batman has done a better job in recent adaptations - Catwoman is Black in both Reeves Batman and HQTAS, Gordon is Black in Reeves Batman - but his comics are still extremely white.

[Gaius]

Yeah, I'm not gonna disagree Agent Z but including I Ching and Egg Fu seems an odd thing when the last time they were relevant in WW comics was before most any us were born. If Egg Fu pops up at all, it's an HQ book most likely these days.

[SiegePerilous02]

This was maybe true in the past, though I'd hesitate to include characters like I Ching and Egg Fu because those were the '60s-'70s. But the WW franchise has made actual efforts to improve and now it's FAR more diverse and inclusive than pretty much any other big DC franchise. Most of the Amazons in current canon are nonwhite (including the Themyscirans) and at least half of the supporting cast is nonwhite - Etta, Nubia, Philippus, Yara, recent major supporting characters like Faruka and Siggy, the newest prominent Amazon in Bia, etc.

Yara definitely could've been handled better, but a white writer creating a character based on a culture they're not familiar with and failing to explore that culture isn't exactly unique. All she needs to fix her is a a turn with a writer who has some tie to indigenous Brazilian culture. Other than that, nonwhite characters get a lot of well-placed focus - we're about to get an ongoing about the Amazons with an ensemble cast that only includes one white character and she isn't even native to the Wonder-verse.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and there's always room to improve, but the Batman and Superman franchises barely even HAVE nonwhite characters. Batman has Cass Cain (who's only just getting more exposure), arguably Damian (who's supposed to be half-Arab but is usually depicted as white), and two very minor supporting characters in Lucian and Jace. Superman has Kenan and Perry White, both very minor supporting characters. And...that's really it. MAWS introduced more diversity into the Superman franchise with Asian Lois and Black Jimmy, but that hasn't made its way to any other media. Batman has done a better job in recent adaptations - Catwoman is Black in both Reeves Batman and HQTAS, Gordon is Black in Reeves Batman - but his comics are still extremely white.

Don't forget Renee Montoya, though otherwise...yeah.

I think Superman and Batman probably have way worse Asian depictions in their history than I-Ching if we go back far enough. Egg Fu achieves meme status mostly for being just so wtf on top of being offensive.

[Agent Z]

I forgot to add Akila going from pacifist scholar to being reimagined as a villain. Though that happened in Red Hood and the Outlaws and is more in line with DC picking the most random characters to vilify than just a Wonder Woman thing. But even beyond that, we have the fact the Bana with the most focus and heroic characterization is the very white Artemis.

This was maybe true in the past, though I'd hesitate to include characters like I Ching and Egg Fu because those were the '60s-'70s. But the WW franchise has made actual efforts to improve and now it's FAR more diverse and inclusive than pretty much any other big DC franchise. Most of the Amazons in current canon are nonwhite (including the Themyscirans) and at least half of the supporting cast is nonwhite - Etta, Nubia, Philippus, Yara, recent major supporting characters like Faruka and Siggy, the newest prominent Amazon in Bia, etc.

Yara definitely could've been handled better, but a white writer creating a character based on a culture they're not familiar with and failing to explore that culture isn't exactly unique. All she needs to fix her is a a turn with a writer who has some tie to indigenous Brazilian culture. Other than that, nonwhite characters get a lot of well-placed focus - we're about to get an ongoing about the Amazons with an ensemble cast that only includes one white character and she isn't even native to the Wonder-verse.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and there's always room to improve, but the Batman and Superman franchises barely even HAVE nonwhite characters. Batman has Cass Cain (who's only just getting more exposure), arguably Damian (who's supposed to be half-Arab but is usually depicted as white), and two very minor supporting characters in Lucian and Jace. Superman has Kenan and Perry White, both very minor supporting characters. And...that's really it. MAWS introduced more diversity into the Superman franchise with Asian Lois and Black Jimmy, but that hasn't made its way to any other media. Batman has done a better job in recent adaptations - Catwoman is Black in both Reeves Batman and HQTAS, Gordon is Black in Reeves Batman - but his comics are still extremely white.

For Batman you forgot Duke Thomas and Renee Montoya, the latter also being mentioned by Seige. There is also Clownhunter and Ghostmaker who are much more recent additions. I'm not sure I would count Perry White seeing as how he's only black in two adaptations.

It isn't bad now but I feel like it took so long to get there and had a lot of really troubling choices regarding race along the way. It's sad to think that the longest running comic starring a non-white female character came from the male-dominated Batman world instead of the Wonder Woman one. Then again, maybe we dodged a potential bullet given how Cass was treated afterwards. I guess I just wish the Wonder Woman world was better at intersectionality and hope it only gets better moving forward.

In a weird way, the Superman franchise is the best of the Trinity when it comes to non-white characters. They don't have as many as Batman and Wonder Woman and don't appear as often as I might like but it feels like they are less likely to be hit with stupidly offensive decisions compared to the former two.

[marhawkman]

Don't forget Renee Montoya, though otherwise...yeah.

I think Superman and Batman probably have way worse Asian depictions in their history than I-Ching if we go back far enough. Egg Fu achieves meme status mostly for being just so wtf on top of being offensive.

being asian isn't even what made Egg-fu WTf.

[Guy_McNichts]

Honestly, and this may be a controversial opinion in itself, but I do like the modern designs of Egg-Fu:


Just, purely from a design perspective, I think he's a cool thing for Wonder Woman to fight.

I think if you could divorce him from the negative Asian elements, he could be worth-while foe. Of course, doing so would be difficult when it's in his very name: "Egg-Fu."

I don't recall which comic it was, but I know one take on him made him out to be a Lovecraftian horror from beyond time and space--as opposed to a Chinese stereotype in the form of an egg--and his actual name was Ygg-Fu-Sotthoth.
It's a step in the right direction at least.

[John Venus]

I really, really hate to say this but among the Trinity franchises, Wonder Woman is the worst at handling non-white characters. Egg Fu, I Ching, the Bana Migdhall, Trevor Barnes's death and the way Yara was handled.

Sadly true. Also Nubia was neglected for decades until recently. Etta has gotten more spotlight recently but doesn't feel as prominent as Steve Trevor currently. Diana and Etta should be as inseparable as Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson. You could remove Etta from the recent story lines and they would still work, sadly.

But I think it all circles back to WW not getting as much solo adaptations and writers constantly starting over from square one.