Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Alpha]

Yeah, a lot of the veneration of the Golden and Silver ages is based in some really shallow reasons for enjoying them. Every once in a while I'll see someone asking for the Holiday Girls back despite the fact that they can't name one single character among them or pin down their personality. These same people will also dismiss well defined characters as boring or too angsty. Diana's post crisis depictions get similar accusations despite being a more well rounded character than than perpetually and shallowly boisterous character Marston wrote and fans will defend runs with objectively bad writing simply because something from them reminded them of anything from before 1987.

Wtf are you talking about. The holliday girls aren’t being judged on how deep they were, the point is what they added to Diana's saga. It wasn't a telenovela (which is what Vanessa Kapatelis is).

And Diana had great personality in the 40s. You can compare how well those stories were written, but the personality itself was much better than than George Perez in which Diana was written in a dramatic way, and poetic way, but not in a charismatic way.

[Agent Z]

Wtf are you talking about. The holliday girls aren’t being judged on how deep they were, the point is what they added to Diana's saga. It wasn't a telenovela (which is what Vanessa Kapatelis is).

And Diana had great personality in the 40s. You can compare how well those stories were written, but the personality itself was much better than than George Perez in which Diana was written in a dramatic way, and poetic way, but not in a charismatic way.

Kinda proving my point here.

[Gaius]

Golden Age Diana isn't written particularly any more engaging or deep than a standard 1940s screwball comedy heroine.

It's certainly more exaggerated personality but that's true for most characters back then.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Golden Age villains are silly, but I'm a fan of Golden/Silver age silliness. It's an inherently silly genre, no need to be insecure about it

Vanessa and Julia are not telenovela characters, and I've liked them more on re-reads. But I do think they are a bit overrated, but underrated by others. Even though I want Julia and Vanessa to be part of the core cast, I think Rucka replacing Julia with Barbara in that story beat to set up WW vs Cheetah was an improvement.

Golden Age Etta is the best Man's World ally Diana ever had, and one reason I've never been taken with the Kapatelis women being over emphasized is that it helped reinforced Etta being underutilized (I'm aware it's not the only factor). I also think Diana needs to have, among other things, a female BFF in Man's World that is close to her own age. Because Diana's closest relationships were with middle aged people (Julia, Steve and Etta) and a child (Vanessa), and that was weird coming off the fact that she didn't interact with any other kids while growing up. I find the notion of her being able to develop into a healthy person without interactions with other kids to be more unrealistic than the Greek gods or her ability to fly.

[Alpha]

Golden Age Diana isn't written particularly any more engaging or deep than a standard 1940s screwball comedy actress.

She has fun, she plays around, she's sassy. And she likes challenges.

Which something the George Perez version has nothing of. The George Perez version is a soap opera with all of the drama and strange romanticism.

Diana isn't a character from romanticism (i'm talking about the literary movement)

[Alpha]

I find the notion of her being able to develop into a healthy person without interactions with other kids to be more unrealistic than the Greek gods or her ability to fly.

Most of the time when people bring up this question i just disagree because I think of those children that lived in castles surrounded by adults, and played around with nannies or whoever. It's not like an adult couldn't have the same kind of playtime with a kid, that a kid does with other kids.

But I do understand that there is a certain imbalance in you being younger than everbody you know.

To me this means that Diana would have a supernatural Imaginary Friend, which is something I already added in my headcannon a while ago. I giant blue bunny with wings that is chaotic

But I also think it's interesting to talk about what development issues Diana could have if she never has another kid around her growing up. It could be an answer to the desire to give her flaws (which I don't want but do understand)

[Agent Z]

The Golden Age villains are silly, but I'm a fan of Golden/Silver age silliness. It's an inherently silly genre, no need to be insecure about it

Vanessa and Julia are not telenovela characters, and I've liked them more on re-reads. But I do think they are a bit overrated, but underrated by others. Even though I want Julia and Vanessa to be part of the core cast, I think Rucka replacing Julia with Barbara in that story beat to set up WW vs Cheetah was an improvement.

Golden Age Etta is the best Man's World ally Diana ever had, and one reason I've never been taken with the Kapatelis women being over emphasized is that it helped reinforced Etta being underutilized (I'm aware it's not the only factor). I also think Diana needs to have, among other things, a female BFF in Man's World that is close to her own age. Because Diana's closest relationships were with middle aged people (Julia, Steve and Etta) and a child (Vanessa), and that was weird coming off the fact that she didn't interact with any other kids while growing up. I find the notion of her being able to develop into a healthy person without interactions with other kids to be more unrealistic than the Greek gods or her ability to fly.

That problem could easily have been rectified with having either Nubia, Donna or both as siblings.

[Agent Z]

She has fun, she plays around, she's sassy. And she likes challenges.

Which something the George Perez version has nothing of. The George Perez version is a soap opera with all of the drama and strange romanticism.

Diana isn't a character from romanticism (i'm talking about the literary movement)

Diana wasn't a lot of things when Marston wrote her.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think Golden Age Diana can come across as a breath of fresh air compared to how naive and sometimes overly sweet/serious Perez's Diana could be. Even if she comes across as a screwball comedy actress from the 40's, that can be a nice break. As a literary figure who offers a window into the....unique world view of her creator, she is more interesting than most other versions of her, including Perez in some ways. Perezs has strengths in other areas, but being better wholesale has never been the case for me.

That problem could easily have been rectified with having either Nubia, Donna or both as siblings.

It wasn't, though.

And while I think it would help, it'd be better to have more young Amazons in the same generation as Diana and Nubia. It'd be where Mala came from.

[HestiasHearth]

Why can't we have both of these aspects? Comic books, comic book superhero stories, can integrate well rounded characters, 'silly'-sounding villain names, and a campy, fun aesthetic within a tale that has narrative gravitas and an overall compelling plot structure. What I would hate to have is a WW book that veers too much towards either side in an extreme direction that finds no balance. Wonder Woman should be a place where Golden Age Etta & Perez's Julia K can coexist, a place where Merboy and Ferdinand, as well as the two Trevors can interact, a place where Giganta & Mayfly can get to know each other, a place where Ed Indelicato can fall in love with a half harpy, half amazon former slave of Eviless', and a place where butterfly-winged mermaids can face off with kangas and two-headed Hadeshound puppies. Just my 2 cents.

[Gaius]

She has fun, she plays around, she's sassy. And she likes challenges.

And I can find examples of all of those in Perez's run except for being "sassy".

Which again it's because GA Wonder Woman is just a screwball comedy heroine. Like how most early superhero characters were just stealing from movies.

[Alpha]

And I can find examples of all of those in Perez's run except for being "sassy".

The Perez version of Diana is inherently reactive. She doesn't actively look for challenges.
And she isn't fun, or funny. Those stories centered around drama, and the levity that they had was some kind of weird angelic unnatural characterization. A 1950s hostess' idea of fun, like rolling around on a field of grass or something like that.

Seriously, Julia Kapatelis is introduced in a library and she is describe as "dangerous" for her students simply because she is standing on a high shelf. That's the lamest version of a fun teacher I've ever seen.

Which again it's because GA Wonder Woman is just a screwball comedy heroine. Like how most early superhero characters were just stealing from movies.

What is a moment that you attribute to "screwball comedy" on the part of Diana.

And again, I don't wanna hang out with Perez Diana. I don't wanna be like her.

Romanticism isn't the literary movement that embodies Wonder Woman, George Perez didn't understand her.

[Agent Z]

The Perez version of Diana is inherently reactive. She doesn't actively look for challenges.
And she isn't fun, or funny. Those stories centered around drama, and the levity that they had was some kind of weird angelic unnatural characterization. A 1950s hostess' idea of fun, like rolling around on a field of grass or something like that.

Seriously, Julia Kapatelis is introduced in a library and she is describe as "dangerous" for her students simply because she is standing on a high shelf. That's the lamest version of a fun teacher I've ever seen.



What is a moment that you attribute to "screwball comedy" on the part of Diana.

And again, I don't wanna hang out with Perez Diana. I don't wanna be like her.

Romanticism isn't the literary movement that embodies Wonder Woman, George Perez didn't understand her.

He understood how to write her as a person rather than a Looney Tune.

Just because you didn't want to be around Perez's Diana doesn't mean no one else wanted to. The number of people who liked her and still do proves that.

[Gaius]

Romanticism isn't the literary movement that embodies Wonder Woman, George Perez didn't understand her.

Your preferred way of writing the character =/= equal the only way to write the character or "doesn't understand the character".

He understood how to write her as a person rather than a Looney Tune.

Perfectly stated.

[SiegePerilous02]

Why can't we have both of these aspects? Comic books, comic book superhero stories, can integrate well rounded characters, 'silly'-sounding villain names, and a campy, fun aesthetic within a tale that has narrative gravitas and an overall compelling plot structure. What I would hate to have is a WW book that veers too much towards either side in an extreme direction that finds no balance. Wonder Woman should be a place where Golden Age Etta & Perez's Julia K can coexist, a place where Merboy and Ferdinand, as well as the two Trevors can interact, a place where Giganta & Mayfly can get to know each other, a place where Ed Indelicato can fall in love with a half harpy, half amazon former slave of Eviless', and a place where butterfly-winged mermaids can face off with kangas and two-headed Hadeshound puppies. Just my 2 cents.

Yeah. Both versions might have weaknesses that the fans of it don't want to admit to, and I think a proper integration would make for a much stronger WW mythos.

He understood how to write her as a person rather than a Looney Tune.

Just because you didn't want to be around Perez's Diana doesn't mean no one else wanted to. The number of people who liked her and still do proves that.

Have you watched Looney Toons? Because I don't see the similarity.