Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Guy_McNichts]

Even putting aside the results from the Marvel vs. DC series, I've never liked the Amalgam of Wonder Woman and Storm.
Mainly because it was less a combination of the two and more "What if Ororo was raised on Themyscira?" Which wouldn't be a problem either, except their answer to that question was: "She would become Wonder Woman, and Diana would be a petty, jealous bitch about it."

Bad enough Diana lost the fight (via dubious means; I mean, a lightning bolt? C'mon!), but for Amalgam to turn her into the Vegeta to Ororo's Goku felt like a slap in the face.


And as long as I'm on this subject...I realize the original Marvel vs. DC series was just nonsensical fan-voted wank, but I feel like if Wonder Woman and Storm were put in a position where they had to battle each other for the fate of their respective universes, they would both realize how stupid it is and deliberately sabotage the contest by playing Tic-Tac-Toe to a draw.

[Agent Z]

This one is about Diana's "flaw" in not managing her social life well and not keeping in contact with friends.

Leaving aside that this is just putting a problem of writers and editors into the character, we have never seen this examined in any real capacity. The most we got out of it was Vanessa turning into the Silver Swan and even then it was just an excuse to turn her into a villain without Diana's knowledge. This flaw is a joke created by bad practices of writers and editors. It would be like making Spider-Man a serial cheater because of his multiple girlfriends.

[Gaius]

Even putting aside the results from the Marvel vs. DC series, I've never liked the Amalgam of Wonder Woman and Storm.
Mainly because it was less a combination of the two and more "What if Ororo was raised on Themyscira?" Which wouldn't be a problem either, except their answer to that question was: "She would become Wonder Woman, and Diana would be a petty, jealous bitch about it."

Bad enough Diana lost the fight (via dubious means; I mean, a lightning bolt? C'mon!), but for Amalgam to turn her into the Vegeta to Ororo's Goku felt like a slap in the face.


And as long as I'm on this subject...I realize the original Marvel vs. DC series was just nonsensical fan-voted wank, but I feel like if Wonder Woman and Storm were put in a position where they had to battle each other for the fate of their respective universes, they would both realize how stupid it is and deliberately sabotage the contest by playing Tic-Tac-Toe to a draw.

Would be interesting how some of those fan votes would go today. Still a lot of X-Men fans but I imagine WW's raised stature with stuff like the movies could see the vote swing the other way.

[Skytten]

Would be interesting how some of those fan votes would go today. Still a lot of X-Men fans but I imagine WW's raised stature with stuff like the movies could see the vote swing the other way.

I think Wonder Woman would win now. Wasn't Amalgam at the height of the X-men cartoon? After that Wonder Woman has had DCAU and her solo movies. Storm however hasn't had the best portrayal in other media since then.

[HestiasHearth]

I think Wonder Woman would win now. Wasn't Amalgam at the height of the X-men cartoon? After that Wonder Woman has had DCAU and her solo movies. Storm however hasn't had the best portrayal in other media since then.

I definitely agree. Imagine if Amalgam had come out in late 2017; you know that Diana would have kicked Storm's ass votes-wise if the voting had taken place during the triumphant year WW had with the first WW film

[Primal Slayer]

I think Wonder Woman would win now. Wasn't Amalgam at the height of the X-men cartoon? After that Wonder Woman has had DCAU and her solo movies. Storm however hasn't had the best portrayal in other media since then.

Votes wise....yeah WW would probably stand a better chance.

[Guy_McNichts]

I don't dislike Yara Flor or what she can bring to Wonder Woman's world, but I feel like she could be handled and incorporated better.

Like her constant disdain for being called Wonder Girl, for instance. It could be an amusing quirk, but practice it comes across less like the running gag of a hot-headed character with a chip on her shoulder and more like she has nothing but utter contempt for being associated with the Wonder family.
It reminds me of genre movies that try to be "clever" by having a side character constantly remark how stupid and cliche the genre is. It's not endearing. It's obnoxious, and I don't like characters actively telling me the stories they're involved with are stupid and unworthy of respect.

Or take the recent issue of Amazons Attack where declares she has no respect for the Greek gods. Fair enough...she shouldn't respect them...but it kinda irks me that the writer that has her do that is the same one that had Diana meekly cry, "How can I possibly fight the gods, Barbara?!" last year.
I'm all for Yara being defiant and confrontational, but not when those qualities are highlighted by making the other Wonder characters look like spineless pushovers in comparison.

Granted, this might be less an issue with the character and more a problem with Josie Campbell's approach, who in general, she seems to prefer the Marvel family and would evidently rather be writing them.
With that in mind, maybe it shouldn't be a surprise the only Wonder character she does appear to care about is the one she writes as embarrassed that she's a Wonder character.


I didn't mind her appearance in the last issue of Wonder Woman...aside from the overly formal robot dialogue Tom King had her spouting, but that's a definitely a King problem.

[bardkeep]

Not a controversial opinion so much as a theory...

I suspect DC is gunning so hard for the Zeus origin and pushing the sword/shield because they know the clay origin and classic iconography (bracers, tiara, lasso, invisible jet, Paradise Island) are set to enter the public domain in the next 15 years. They're likely trying to establish the badass Greek warrior as the archetype because the closest thing to a "classic" take on the character is the Lynda Carter version, which unlike the classic versions of Superman/Batman draws almost entirely from day-1 Golden Age stuff.

They're clearly trying to take advantage of the fact that there haven't been enough adaptations to solidify one definitive version of the character, but it's too little, too late. Even just the Gal Gadot version was all over the place in all but aesthetic (Patty Jenkins and Zack Snyder had totally different takes, and the Diana in WW84 was nothing like the Diana in the 2017 film).

My only hope is that the abject failure of the DCEU makes them try something totally different for the next big adaptation. Honestly just tie her more to Themyscira, introduce members of her Post-Crisis supporting cast, bring in some modern villains, make the public domain characters really distinct (e.g. Post-Crisis or Rebirth Circe, the Historia take on the Greek gods), and emphasize her later power additions like flight and talking to animals and you've got a lot of essential stuff that's neither DCEU nor public domain.

[Gaius]

Not a controversial opinion so much as a theory...

I suspect DC is gunning so hard for the Zeus origin and pushing the sword/shield because they know the clay origin and classic iconography (bracers, tiara, lasso, invisible jet, Paradise Island) are set to enter the public domain in the next 15 years. They're likely trying to establish the badass Greek warrior as the archetype because the closest thing to a "classic" take on the character is the Lynda Carter version, which unlike the classic versions of Superman/Batman draws almost entirely from day-1 Golden Age stuff.

They're clearly trying to take advantage of the fact that there haven't been enough adaptations to solidify one definitive version of the character, but it's too little, too late. Even just the Gal Gadot version was all over the place in all but aesthetic (Patty Jenkins and Zack Snyder had totally different takes, and the Diana in WW84 was nothing like the Diana in the 2017 film).

My only hope is that the abject failure of the DCEU makes them try something totally different for the next big adaptation. Honestly just tie her more to Themyscira, introduce members of her Post-Crisis supporting cast, bring in some modern villains, make the public domain characters really distinct (e.g. Post-Crisis or Rebirth Circe, the Historia take on the Greek gods), and emphasize her later power additions like flight and talking to animals and you've got a lot of essential stuff that's neither DCEU nor public domain.

There was Variety article which talked about DC (and WB higher exces) discussing as far back as 2001 about how to plan when their early stuff begins entering the PD and that's definitely made me think it's been a motivating factor for several DC initiatives since the New 52 at least.

Especially when comparing WW vs. Superman/Batman since their iconic stuff came in fits and spirts over decades. Supes stuff mostly from the Silver Age and most modern Batman adaptations are pretty much built off Denny O'Neil and Frank Miller stuff. While the most notable changes DC's done to WW in the past 15 years have been the costume and Daddy Zeus.

Whereas you could do a decently recognizable plot of the first movie even using just WW PD stuff.

[bardkeep]

There was Variety article which talked about DC (and WB higher exces) discussing as far back as 2001 about how to plan when their early stuff begins entering the PD and that's definitely made me think it's been a motivating factor for several DC initiatives since the New 52 at least.

Especially when comparing WW vs. Superman/Batman since their iconic stuff came in fits and spirts over decades. Supes stuff mostly from the Silver Age and most modern Batman adaptations are pretty much built off Denny O'Neil and Frank Miller stuff. While the most notable changes DC's done to WW in the past 15 years have been the costume and Daddy Zeus.

Whereas you could do a decently recognizable plot of the first movie even using just WW PD stuff.

That Variety article was actually what made me think of this. WB made a big mistake not putting out a WW animated series at the same time as BTAS/STAS - if it had been part of the Timm zeitgeist and they built it on Perez's run like STAS did with Byrne's run, they'd be in a much easier position.

But hey, even if WB keeps pushing the n52-ified version of the character, at least there'll eventually be some awesome GA-inspired stories that have all of her basic ingredients without the constraints of the IP.

[WonderLight789]

That Variety article was actually what made me think of this. WB made a big mistake not putting out a WW animated series at the same time as BTAS/STAS - if it had been part of the Timm zeitgeist and they built it on Perez's run like STAS did with Byrne's run, they'd be in a much easier position.

But hey, even if WB keeps pushing the n52-ified version of the character, at least there'll eventually be some awesome GA-inspired stories that have all of her basic ingredients without the constraints of the IP.

They don't feel they made a mistake. Because they never really cared that much about the WW franchise. So it will be poetic justice, if somebody else creates successful WW content including animated stuff, with the PD WW. At this point and with the trackrecord they have had with WW. They deserve to see others outside the label, doing successful things with WW, and them unable to take a portion of that profit.

[John Venus]

Not a controversial opinion so much as a theory...

I suspect DC is gunning so hard for the Zeus origin and pushing the sword/shield because they know the clay origin and classic iconography (bracers, tiara, lasso, invisible jet, Paradise Island) are set to enter the public domain in the next 15 years. They're likely trying to establish the badass Greek warrior as the archetype because the closest thing to a "classic" take on the character is the Lynda Carter version, which unlike the classic versions of Superman/Batman draws almost entirely from day-1 Golden Age stuff.

They're clearly trying to take advantage of the fact that there haven't been enough adaptations to solidify one definitive version of the character, but it's too little, too late. Even just the Gal Gadot version was all over the place in all but aesthetic (Patty Jenkins and Zack Snyder had totally different takes, and the Diana in WW84 was nothing like the Diana in the 2017 film).

My only hope is that the abject failure of the DCEU makes them try something totally different for the next big adaptation. Honestly just tie her more to Themyscira, introduce members of her Post-Crisis supporting cast, bring in some modern villains, make the public domain characters really distinct (e.g. Post-Crisis or Rebirth Circe, the Historia take on the Greek gods), and emphasize her later power additions like flight and talking to animals and you've got a lot of essential stuff that's neither DCEU nor public domain.

While I have no doubt they have taken steps regarding characters entering PD, it's not like the Zeus origin is unique enough to fall under copyright. There is a reason it's considered generic. I think the Zeus origin happened for the same reason that we got skinny Amanda Waller; marketing based on preconceived notions of what would appeal to a broad audience. Prior to the Zeus origin, we had generations of writers claiming that WW is too 'complicated' or 'hard to get'. For those writers, the Zeus origin was a boon.

[Gaius]

That Variety article was actually what made me think of this. WB made a big mistake not putting out a WW animated series at the same time as BTAS/STAS - if it had been part of the Timm zeitgeist and they built it on Perez's run like STAS did with Byrne's run, they'd be in a much easier position.

But hey, even if WB keeps pushing the n52-ified version of the character, at least there'll eventually be some awesome GA-inspired stories that have all of her basic ingredients without the constraints of the IP.

Yeah, lot of interesting stuff to see in the next few years now that copyrights expiring are approaching the era of sound films and characters who are still being used today.

While I have no doubt they have taken steps regarding characters entering PD, it's not like the Zeus origin is unique enough to fall under copyright. There is a reason it's considered generic. I think the Zeus origin happened for the same reason that we got skinny Amanda Waller; marketing based on preconceived notions of what would appeal to a broad audience. Prior to the Zeus origin, we had generations of writers claiming that WW is too 'complicated' or 'hard to get'. For those writers, the Zeus origin was a boon.

Both can be true. DC changed WW's origin to make it more "simple" and didn't like Diana not having a father but now that early WW stuff entering the PD is within sight, the goal now to is associate the Wonder Woman owned by WB is a daughter of Zeus. Something won't enter PD in any of our (or children's) lifetimes.

Yes, the origin has been critiqued as "generic" but that's just because it's something most everyone would do with a modern story using Greek mythology but if someone were to make a public domain WW that's the daughter of Zeus than WB's lawyers could probably argue reasonably in court that conflates with their version of the character still under copyright. That's why all these Mickey Mouse horror schlock are staying in the confines of how Mickey looks in Steamboat Willie.

[Agent Z]

Not a controversial opinion so much as a theory...

I suspect DC is gunning so hard for the Zeus origin and pushing the sword/shield because they know the clay origin and classic iconography (bracers, tiara, lasso, invisible jet, Paradise Island) are set to enter the public domain in the next 15 years. They're likely trying to establish the badass Greek warrior as the archetype because the closest thing to a "classic" take on the character is the Lynda Carter version, which unlike the classic versions of Superman/Batman draws almost entirely from day-1 Golden Age stuff.

They're clearly trying to take advantage of the fact that there haven't been enough adaptations to solidify one definitive version of the character, but it's too little, too late. Even just the Gal Gadot version was all over the place in all but aesthetic (Patty Jenkins and Zack Snyder had totally different takes, and the Diana in WW84 was nothing like the Diana in the 2017 film).

My only hope is that the abject failure of the DCEU makes them try something totally different for the next big adaptation. Honestly just tie her more to Themyscira, introduce members of her Post-Crisis supporting cast, bring in some modern villains, make the public domain characters really distinct (e.g. Post-Crisis or Rebirth Circe, the Historia take on the Greek gods), and emphasize her later power additions like flight and talking to animals and you've got a lot of essential stuff that's neither DCEU nor public domain.

Related to this, I think a lot of the support for Wonder Woman and Superman being public domain is largely unfounded if the non-Disney Winnie the Pooh and Steamboat Willie movies are any indication of what to expect.

[WonderLight789]

I think we can say then, that it is very likely that the clay origin is not coming back in dc comics. At least in the main canon timeline.