Wonder Woman Controversial Opinions Part 2

[Primal Slayer]

I've seen people suggest Barbara Minerva should be fully redeemed at this point, but what about bringing back Priscilla Rich and have her be the villainous Cheetah in her absence?

WW is the last hero who needs her thiny used regular villains to be redeemed.

[Agent Z]

GOD NO! I'm sick and tired of every female villain (especially DC) becoming anti-heroes/villain or heroes when they get a somewhat sympathetic backstory and/or become popular. Let women be evil, let women be psychopaths!

But to answer your question if they do that then yes I would hope so. A Cheetah should always be a villain.

Not every female villain has been reformed. There are plenty that are still evil.

[marhawkman]

No redemption for Barbara. Rucka may have wrote her with a sympathetic origin, but I think he and Orlando depicted her as a tragic monster not destined for a happy ending.

Diana wanting to reform her just adds a tragic flaw to Diana. Barbara is a toxic friend who she can't let go, it exploits her compassion and love as a weakness.

I think a good option would be not trying to make every bad guy mustache twirling puppy-kickers. Which... yes, what this really means is having villains who actually stay villains despite being grey.

[Skytten]

Not every female villain has been reformed. There are plenty that are still evil.

Firstly I didn't say reformed I said hero or anti-hero/villain. Secondly it's hyperbole.
But a lot of femaie villains have been going that route. Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Cheetah (according to Tom King and Cloonrad), Silver Banshee, Killer Frost (Caitlin Snow was the only Killer Frost prior to Doomsday Clock and they turned her hero), Silver Swan and Giganta (in their last appearance), Shiva, Shado and Cheshire (they all are in the harmful dragon lady trope so a change is fine, but all three and there is no prominent female asian villain left), Talia (she wasn't a villain at her introduction, but turned into one and is no longer again a villain) to name some.

[Agent Z]

Firstly I didn't say reformed I said hero or anti-hero/villain.

What exactly is the difference?

But a lot of femaie villains have been going that route. Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Cheetah (according to Tom King and Cloonrad), Silver Banshee, Killer Frost (Caitlin Snow was the only Killer Frost prior to Doomsday Clock and they turned her hero), Silver Swan and Giganta (in their last appearance), Shiva, Shado and Cheshire (they all are in the harmful dragon lady trope so a change is fine, but all three and there is no prominent female asian villain left), Talia (she wasn't a villain at her introduction, but turned into one and is no longer again a villain) to name some.

Silver Swan, Cheetah and Giganta are going to be used as villains in King's run despite at least two of them having been reformed (and the current Silver Swan wasn't even created to be a villain). Shiva wasn't originally a villain, so her being a hero or antihero is more of a return to form. I'm perfectly fine with there being no prominent female Asian villains if it means DC finally stops using the outdated Dragon Lady trope.

You've still got Jinx, Shimmer, Waller, Circe, Mongal, the Female Furies and a ton of villainesses that could be made prominent characters if DC remembered them. Male villains have also been reformed or made heroes.

[Skytten]

What exactly is the difference?



Silver Swan, Cheetah and Giganta are going to be used as villains in King's run despite at least two of them having been reformed (and the current Silver Swan wasn't even created to be a villain). Shiva wasn't originally a villain, so her being a hero or antihero is more of a return to form. I'm perfectly fine with there being no prominent female Asian villains if it means DC finally stops using the outdated Dragon Lady trope.

You've still got Jinx, Shimmer, Waller, Circe, Mongal, the Female Furies and a ton of villainesses that could be made prominent characters if DC remembered them. Male villains have also been reformed or made heroes.

The difference is that there are so many more male villains then female villains and just because there still are some doesn't mean it isn't a bad trend.
And yes King will use some of those reformed villains, but how many people aren't disapointed by that? You can see that in the king thread. I don't like the villains being reformed, but a sudden change back to being a villain isn't much better.

The difference is that if they are anti-hero/villain they still do bad things, but usually loses out the relationship of being a villain to there superhero.

Edit: Anyway this isn't the right place for this discussion. if it isn't only about the Wonder Woman villains so sorry about derailing.

[Agent Z]

The difference is that there are so many more male villains then female villains and just because there still are some doesn't mean it isn't a bad trend.

This is more of an argument to make more female villains, not that too many have been reformed.

And yes King will use some of those reformed villains, but how many people aren't disapointed by that? You can see that in the king thread.

I've only seen complaints about Vanessa being a villain again and ignoring that Vita Ayala's redemption of her. Vanessa wasn't originally a villain and aside from her, fans are excited for the villains King is using.

[Skytten]

This is more of an argument to make more female villains, not that too many have been reformed.



I've only seen complaints about Vanessa being a villain again and ignoring that Vita Ayala's redemption of her. Vanessa wasn't originally a villain and aside from her, fans are excited for the villains King is using.

I think you can make the argument that it is for both. Plenty of female villains have been made, but not done anything with.
I have seen complains about Giganta aswell, but they might not be from here. I don't mind Vanessa becoming a hero or just normal again since there are multiple Silver Swans, but since none of the others have been done anything with. I suspect they might just be forgotten.

[PopQuezy]

I'm still sad that we won't get one more Patty Jenkins/Gal Gadot Wonder Woman movie. I woke up this morning thinking that I wish we could have gotten a Wonder Woman: Godwatch film as our final movie in the trilogy as a love letter to action heroines.

I was thinking: Michelle Yeoh as Circe, Halle Berry as Silver Swan, Charlize Theron as Paula Von Gunther, Angelina Jolie as Grail, and Geena Davis as Veronica Cale.

I was imagining the the photo spread on the cover of Vanity Fair with these amazing actresses and Patty Jenkins in the center.

[Triniking1234]

Firstly I didn't say reformed I said hero or anti-hero/villain. Secondly it's hyperbole.
But a lot of femaie villains have been going that route. Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Cheetah (according to Tom King and Cloonrad), Silver Banshee, Killer Frost (Caitlin Snow was the only Killer Frost prior to Doomsday Clock and they turned her hero), Silver Swan and Giganta (in their last appearance), Shiva, Shado and Cheshire (they all are in the harmful dragon lady trope so a change is fine, but all three and there is no prominent female asian villain left), Talia (she wasn't a villain at her introduction, but turned into one and is no longer again a villain) to name some.

Silver Banshee is only reformed for the Olsen romance. They always flip-flopped with Cheshire and Shiva. Talia hasn't been reformed. She was a villain from New 52 to present and she tried to assassinate Lois in Super Sons. Her helping Bruce in Batman vs. Robin doesn't mean she's reformed.

[Skytten]

Silver Banshee is only reformed for the Olsen romance. They always flip-flopped with Cheshire and Shiva. Talia hasn't been reformed. She was a villain from New 52 to present and she tried to assassinate Lois in Super Sons. Her helping Bruce in Batman vs. Robin doesn't mean she's reformed.

I agree it most likely is just for Jimmy Olsen romance, but no it isn't the only time also in New 52. Cheshire and Shiva is a little flip-flop, which is worse but is mostly "good" lately. Talia has been good lately Robin, Batman and Robin, Leviathan (ish) and Detective currently (I'm not sure about this one haven't read it yet, but from what I have heard).

[Agent Z]

I agree it most likely is just for Jimmy Olsen romance, but no it isn't the only time also in New 52. Cheshire and Shiva is a little flip-flop, which is worse but is mostly "good" lately. Talia has been good lately Robin, Batman and Robin, Leviathan (ish) and Detective currently (I'm not sure about this one haven't read it yet, but from what I have heard).

Silver Banshee is only reformed for the Olsen romance. They always flip-flopped with Cheshire and Shiva. Talia hasn't been reformed. She was a villain from New 52 to present and she tried to assassinate Lois in Super Sons. Her helping Bruce in Batman vs. Robin doesn't mean she's reformed.

Cheshire never really flip flopped, there was just some variation in how evil she was. The last few years are the most sympathetic she's been. All of her appearances in the Wonder Woman comics have her as out and out villainous.

[marhawkman]

Cheshire never really flip flopped, there was just some variation in how evil she was. The last few years are the most sympathetic she's been. All of her appearances in the Wonder Woman comics have her as out and out villainous.

Cheshire has the right level of "villain but not 100% bad" angle as she genuinely wanted her daughter to have a nice life, and tried to get Roy to be a better person.

[Koriand'r]

Firstly I didn't say reformed I said hero or anti-hero/villain. Secondly it's hyperbole.
But a lot of femaie villains have been going that route. Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Cheetah (according to Tom King and Cloonrad), Silver Banshee, Killer Frost (Caitlin Snow was the only Killer Frost prior to Doomsday Clock and they turned her hero), Silver Swan and Giganta (in their last appearance), Shiva, Shado and Cheshire (they all are in the harmful dragon lady trope so a change is fine, but all three and there is no prominent female asian villain left), Talia (she wasn't a villain at her introduction, but turned into one and is no longer again a villain) to name some.

It's kind of a shame that we can't have good villains because they fit into an unfortunate trope that somebody came up with, especially since the strereotype isn't really that negative.

"Dragon Lady is usually a stereotype of certain East Asian and occasionally South Asian and/or Southeast Asian women as strong, deceitful, domineering, mysterious, and often sexually alluring. Inspired by the characters played by actress Anna May Wong, the term comes from the female villain in the comic strip Terry and the Pirates. It has since been applied to powerful women from certain regions of Asia, as well as a number of Asian and Asian American film actresses. The stereotype has generated a large quantity of sociological literature. "Dragon Lady" is sometimes applied to persons who lived before the term became part of American slang in the 1930s. "Dragon Lady" is one of two main stereotypes used to describe women, the other being "Lotus Blossoms". Lotus Blossoms tend to be the opposite of the Dragon Lady stereotype, having their character being hyper-sexualized and submissive. Dragon Lady is also used to refer to any powerful but prickly woman, usually in a derogatory fashion."

[Agent Z]

It's kind of a shame that we can't have good villains because they fit into an unfortunate trope that somebody came up with, especially since the strereotype isn't really that negative.

"Dragon Lady is usually a stereotype of certain East Asian and occasionally South Asian and/or Southeast Asian women as strong, deceitful, domineering, mysterious, and often sexually alluring. Inspired by the characters played by actress Anna May Wong, the term comes from the female villain in the comic strip Terry and the Pirates. It has since been applied to powerful women from certain regions of Asia, as well as a number of Asian and Asian American film actresses. The stereotype has generated a large quantity of sociological literature. "Dragon Lady" is sometimes applied to persons who lived before the term became part of American slang in the 1930s. "Dragon Lady" is one of two main stereotypes used to describe women, the other being "Lotus Blossoms". Lotus Blossoms tend to be the opposite of the Dragon Lady stereotype, having their character being hyper-sexualized and submissive. Dragon Lady is also used to refer to any powerful but prickly woman, usually in a derogatory fashion."

How is this "not really that negative"?

And last I checked, most of the characters considered good villains aren't dragon ladies. Cheshire and Shado aren't exactly top 10 DC villains. In fact, the former's most popular incarnation is the Young Justice animated series where she's less of a caricature.

This is the kind of thinking that refuses to let Egg Fu die.