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  1. #736
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's one: "Loving submission" is a concept that is too ill-defined and wrapped up Marston's rather troubling philosophies to not be applied in a way that isn't at least potentially offensive.
    Agreed.

    Superman and Lois, while enamored of each other, aren't equal partners on the battlefield, where Lois is clearly outclassed.
    Lois does not work for or serve Superman.

    Steve would also be outclassed on the battlefield. Does not mean he should be subordinate to her in any professional or personal sense. Just has less power.

  2. #737
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    However , it terms of equals they are great journalists. Nothing always has in everything the hero do. Steve is one of the best warriors the Us as and the same with Diana. Both Steve and Diana will not submission to a idea they think is wrong. That’s what Steve and Diana are about. Steve might not be on the same power scale but morals are the same. Generally when reading Marston. I have noticed that loving submission is when mutual both people see what they have done wrong or one person sees what they have done wrong and submits to the person. For example, Transformation island. They submitted to the Amazons and the Amazons submitted to them. Both parties both accepted each other
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  3. #738
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Agreed.

    Lois does not work for or serve Superman.

    Steve would also be outclassed on the battlefield. Does not mean he should be subordinate to her in any professional or personal sense. Just has less power.
    Lois wasn't juggling any skyscrapers, trashing alien armadas or saving the universe, the last time I saw her. How many traps has saving her got Superman into? He loves her anyway, and she's heroic, in her own right, but, she's nowhere near Superman's equal, as a superhero. She has her moments, but, when it counts, Lois does exactly what Superman tells her to do, ..and that's why the Apokoliptian flag isn't flying over Metropolis, today.

    She's a good, little helper, most of the time.

    The same can be said of Steve's relationship with Diana. They are not equals and don't need to be. If we're going to keep Steve around, I see nothing wrong with him acknowledging Diana's superiority, as his commander, while challenging her, ..as her sometimes lover. That's infinitely more interesting, than Superman+Wonder Woman...

    =Swonder bo-oorrrinng.

    Diana, albeit in disguise, worked for/under Steve for decades. I see no reason why, with Diana being a Lara Croftish adventurer, Steve can't play his blamed position and work for/under her in the field. They're not and never have been equals...make it plain. Why is that a problem?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-17-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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  4. #739
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    When it counts, Lois does exactly what Superman tells her to do, ..and that's why the Apokoliptian flag isn't flying over Metropolis, today. She's a good, little helper, most of the time.
    We have vastly different opinions of Lois Lane.

  5. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Lois wasn't juggling any skyscrapers, trashing alien armadas or saving the universe, the last time I saw her. How many traps has saving her got Superman into? He loves her anyway, and she's heroic, in her own right, but, she's nowhere near Superman's equal, as a superhero.
    And who's saying Lois is a superhero?





    She has her moments, but, when it counts, Lois does exactly what Superman tells her to do, ..and that's why the Apokoliptian flag isn't flying over Metropolis, today.
    ... yeah, that's the reason.

    She's a good, little helper, most of the time.

    The same can be said of Steve's relationship with Diana. They are not equals and don't need to be. If we're going to keep Steve around, I see nothing wrong with him acknowledging Diana's superiority, as his commander, while challenging her, ..as her sometimes lover. That's infinitely more interesting, than Superman+Wonder Woman...

    =Swonder bo-oorrrinng.

    Diana, albeit in disguise, worked for/under Steve for decades. I see no reason why, with Diana being a Lara Croftish adventurer, Steve can't play his blamed position and work for/under her in the field. They're not and never have been equals...make it plain. Why is that a problem?
    Steve already has a job and a country he is loyal to. There is no reason to turn him into Diana's servant/concubine or whatever the hell you're suggesting he be.

  6. #741
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Diana has been promoted several times until she was at the same status has Steve. I'm a little confused. Steve and Diana have never been played has equal in terms of job rather equals in terms of how they are both warriors and want to fight for a good cause. Equals in how they view each other. Steve has always be bold and courageous. Now one thing is for sure Diana will always true Steve with items. Which is why I would actually like if Steve had more mythical background knowledge. Might not be able to take on Cheetah be sure has heck can make it less easy for her. Being with Diana should help him deal with certain things.
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  7. #742
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    ...Steve already has a job and a country he is loyal to. There is no reason to turn him into Diana's servant/concubine or whatever the hell you're suggesting he be.
    That is a gross mischaracterization of what I'm saying. I never said any of that.

    Steve can be an ARGUS agent, and a high-ranking one, while still serving Diana, as a soldier, dedicating his special skills to her cause - defense of freedom for all mankind. As Doc Savage had his 'Fabulous Five', Diana should have her 'Sensational Four' or six...

    https://docsavage.fandom.com/wiki/Fabulous_FiveA

    I said very clearly that Steve's subordination should stop, at the bedroom door. I said also that we should see Steve's relationship with Diana, growing and changing, beyond friendship and his service to her, as a loyalist. Check that post...those posts.

    Again, I don't see what's wrong with Steve recognizing Diana, as the leader in his cause and his commander, in the field of battle. She has followed his lead, as a subordinate and a civilian. She has, post-Crisis, looked upon him, as an equal. It's 2019, and I don't see what's wrong with her decisively taking the lead and Steve, while being fiercely independent and a hero in his own right, ..following.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Diana has been promoted several times until she was at the same status has Steve. I'm a little confused. Steve and Diana have never been played has equal in terms of job rather equals in terms of how they are both warriors and want to fight for a good cause. Equals in how they view each other. Steve has always be bold and courageous. Now one thing is for sure Diana will always true Steve with items. Which is why I would actually like if Steve had more mythical background knowledge. Might not be able to take on Cheetah be sure has heck can make it less easy for her. Being with Diana should help him deal with certain things.
    I think I'm following you, Mizuno. You're recognizing Steve's having qualities that are useful to Diana's cause. He has that in common with Etta, Ferdinand and the others. I'm of the opinion that, in 2019, Diana should be their boss.

    I think she should be her own boss and the field commander of her companions, whom we see abandon their various occupations, in the civilian DCU, to answer her call. Diana needs someone, besides herself, whom she can depend on for their knowledge of magic and mysticism. She needs another, more than one, who has exceptional combat and tactical skills. Still another should be her go-to for knowledge of ancient and lost civilizations, history; maybe, that go-to person...is herself? I think Steve should be one of a trusted squad of loyalists, with different specialized skills, giving her everything she needs to get her 'wonder-work' done, in a fashion that makes sense for the WW comic.

    How she brings them together isn't as important to me, as Diana being the clearly recognized boss/commander of her friends. For me, Steve and Diana as co-heroes just doesn't work...feels wrong. I'm not entirely sure that our comfort with the co-hero thing doesn't have something or everything to do, ..with Diana being a woman.

    Not sure. Hope I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-18-2019 at 12:36 AM.
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  8. #743
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Steve can be an ARGUS agent, and a high-ranking one, while still serving Diana, as a soldier, dedicating his special skills to her cause - defense of freedom for all mankind. As Doc Savage had his 'Fabulous Five', Diana should have her 'Sensational Four' or six...
    No, he cannot. As a military member, he cannot server two different parties (the government wouldn't allow it). Not should he. And no, he should not serve her - Lois does not serve Clark, thank God.

    I also don't want Diana to have any kind of army or group of subordinates or followers. Friends and allies, yes. Subordinates, no. If she needs an army, she can go to mom. A smaller force might be her occasionally leadling her allies (her supporting cast or some JL members). But I don't want a military set up or rank structure or pledged loyalty. I want a superhero, not a commander.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-18-2019 at 04:15 AM.

  9. #744
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I also don't want Diana to have any kind of army or group of subordinates or followers. Friends and allies, yes. Subordinates, no. If she needs an army, she can go to mom. A smaller force might be her occasionally leadling her allies (her supporting cast or some JL members). But I don't want a military set up or rank structure or pledged loyalty. I want a superhero, not a commander.
    If Diana needs an army, she simply gets out in front of the nearest demoralised or pinned down army unit, possibly but not necessarily shouting "follow me". See the third story of Wonder Woman #1, or the movie.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  10. #745
    Mighty Member KangMiRae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The knighthood thing is mutable. It needn't be knighthood, in the Northern European sense, but, the idea of binding Diana's friends together, in service to her cause, ..as their royal princess and commander in battle. In this service, would Steve Trevor be one of four or five of Diana's chosen companions, each with special skills, useful in WW stories - fighting, weapons, knowledge of magic, tech skills, Amazon training, etcetera.

    Among Trevor's select skills would be ..the obvious. Woo'woo!

    Superman and Lois, while enamored of each other, aren't equal partners on the battlefield, where Lois is clearly outclassed. Why should Diana and Steve be partners, just because she is a woman? He's nowhere near operating on her level, and what they do to each other in the bedroom has nothing to do with that.

    Anyway...Steve working for or under Diana, anyone? What if Steve, while wanting to completely give-in, was the one resisting loving submission to Diana, instead of the other way around?
    You mean have Steve have cold feet about their dynamic? Kinda cute.
    Last edited by KangMiRae; 07-18-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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  11. #746
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Diana never wants to be the boss of anyone. She is a leader but that doesn’t mean she is a boss. Don’t get that one. Steve has never been cool feet about this. He respects Diana. Why try to change that. Steve has always accepted Diana the way she is. The Amazons were never trying to be the boss of people rather getting the people to not just think of themselves
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  12. #747
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Azzarello did a much better job with Steve than Perez did. Largely by leaving his place in the mythos intact even if he otherwise largely ignored him.

  13. #748
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Azzarello did a much better job with Steve than Perez did. Largely by leaving his place in the mythos intact even if he otherwise largely ignored him.
    Azzarello did a better job than most WW writers.

  14. #749
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    By largely ignoring everything about Diana and her mythos. So basically saying destroying everything. Azz made a run that I feel it’s a wonder woman
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  15. #750
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Azzarello did a better job than most WW writers.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    By largely ignoring everything about Diana and her mythos. So basically saying destroying everything. Azz made a run that I feel it’s a wonder woman
    His writing for Diana herself was solid, and the new supporting cast isn't any more offensive than most writers' ignoring previous casts for their own pet characters. But the depictions of the Amazons and the goddesses, and the Zeus parentage, is too much and goes against the core ideas behind WW.

    I think if he hadn't downplayed the roles of (at least) Aphrodite and Athena as much, and left the Amazons characterizations and technology alone (they spend most of the story as snakes anyway, what is the point of dragging them through the mud?) the run would be much less offensive and actually could have lasted. Zeus being her daddy is kind of hard to avoid because it has actual plot relevance, but Hippolyta sleeping with a married man (she's done far worse through the decades) is much less of an issue for me than her looking the other way as her people kill men and babies.

    Overall Perez was better with a lot of stuff, but the one instance in handling Steve was better than COIE. Keep the basics of his role in the lore, and put him aside for others that want to use him. The 5 year gap between the Secret Origins issue and the beginning of the run still allows for a lot of her other supporting characters and villains to exist as they always did off screen.

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