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  1. #766
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Empress Hippolyta. Maybe instead of Hippolyta making it. They are already exist. Maybe Empress Hippolyta was created by using a part of Hippolyta who wanted power.

  2. #767
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I wonder if Paula will ever return. I mean she can return as Dark Angel

  3. #768
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm not arguing for Steve to be sidelined. I'm not even saying there aren't good versions of the character. I was arguing against seige's claim that Steve has no reason to exist if he isn't a love interest. I don't think even Lois Lane fans would say that about her.
    I'm in agreement to the point that Steve's presence in the title is justified, by more than his being a love interest for Diana. He can be portrayed, as a trusted friend and someone she enlists on missions, where his special skills can be best used. I see no reason that Steve can't be written, as one in a small, trusted circle of loyalists, like Doc Savage's Fabulous Five, from which he emerges, as a growing love interest for the leading lady. I don't see the rush to smoosh them, so comfortably together.

    Good writers can grow the love interest, instead of bombing us with it.

    To Kjn, ..I feel strongly that Steve and Diana's mutual interest in each other [?] should be something in motion and NOT, as with Kal and Lois, ..something resolved and settling in, like an old, brick house. The fallout from Greg Rucka's consummation of Diana's love-thing has proven to be far less exciting, than the final scene, with the trail of discarded clothes, into a dark bedroom. I think Steve and Diana should have a rockier path, and it falls to a good writer to find a way to make that interesting to us, in the on-going narrative. A good writer can allow them to collide, head-on...obliterate each other, bandage their wounds and make love, between successive collisions, creating something sustainably dramatic. In 2019, Rucka's trip to the bedroom can be one in many of a healthy, sexual expression, between two mutually respected and enamored companions.

    What is working for the couple in the Superman comic, right now, is not necessarily the best thing for WW's leading couple.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-24-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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  4. #769
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    To Kjn, ..I feel strongly that Steve and Diana's mutual interest in each other [?] should be something in motion and NOT, as with Kal and Lois, ..something resolved and settling in, like an old, brick house. The fallout from Greg Rucka's consummation of Diana's love-thing has proven to be far less exciting, than the final scene, with the trail of discarded clothes, into a dark bedroom. I think Steve and Diana should have a rockier path, and it falls to a good writer to find a way to make that interesting to us, in the on-going narrative. What is working for them in the Superman comic, right now, is not necessarily the best thing for WW's leading couple.
    You might be correct in that. On the other hand, Wilson is very clearly working with the hand she was dealt (and how she will handle Grail, who is still stuck in the New 52 is another question).

    Now, Wilson has barely had Steve and Diana interact, but she also clearly has ideas on how she wants to approach them as a couple. The eternal will-they-or-won't-they is however rather tired by now, given that it has been going on for so long with so many couples.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #770
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    You might be correct in that. On the other hand, Wilson is very clearly working with the hand she was dealt (and how she will handle Grail, who is still stuck in the New 52 is another question).

    Now, Wilson has barely had Steve and Diana interact, but she also clearly has ideas on how she wants to approach them as a couple. The eternal will-they-or-won't-they is however rather tired by now, given that it has been going on for so long with so many couples.
    In 2019, I think we can assume they have, will ..and will, again. Furthermore, they can do so, freely, frequently (but, infrequently enough to keep it special) ..and, unlike in the Bronze Age, without unfavorable judgments on their character, by us fans.

    Wonder Woman is a free Amazon, a working woman and a perfectly healthy one. She is not beholden to the antiquated, misogynist control of Man's World, disguised as social mores - the same Man's World, who raped, enslaved and exploited her sisters and continued to do the same to mortal women for thousands of years, after their taking leave to Paradise Island. Her sexual expression, with a respected, trusted partner, hurts no one, ..and same goes for Steve.

    On a sidebar, the matter of living freely and having shed bled blood in battle - having buried sisters - for sake of preserving free will, makes Grail, a natural enemy for Wonder Woman ..and any Amazon. While I find Grail, an Anti-life goddess, continues to be wasted and poorly characterized in WW stories, I think Diana needs a natural enemy, ..as much as she needs a natural lover.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 07-24-2019 at 11:39 AM.
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  6. #771
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    Wonder Woman being just as morally ambiguous as Batman is sometimes would be hugely interesting.

  7. #772
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    On a sidebar, the matter of living freely and having shed bled blood in battle - having buried sisters - for sake of preserving free will, makes Grail, a natural enemy for Wonder Woman ..and any Amazon. While I find Grail, an Anti-life goddess, continues to be wasted and poorly characterized in WW stories, I think Diana needs a natural enemy, ..as much as she needs a natural lover.
    Hehe, I'd love to see Grail used in wider scope stories. Not bigger stories in the sense of "OMG Darkseid!" But stories where she fights a wider variety of opponents. Grail's nature makes her an enemy to practically everyone. First person who always comes to my mind is Deva. A proper throwdown between Deva and Grail could make an entire mini-series all on it's own.

  8. #773
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    ...On a sidebar, the matter of living freely and having shed bled blood in battle - having buried sisters - for sake of preserving free will, makes Grail, a natural enemy for Wonder Woman ..and any Amazon. While I find Grail, an Anti-life goddess, continues to be wasted and poorly characterized in WW stories, I think Diana needs a natural enemy, ..as much as she needs a natural lover.
    I agree. Diana lacks for a proper Sinestro/Zoom/Black Adam/Ras al Ghul to call her own.

  9. #774
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I agree. Diana lacks for a proper Sinestro/Zoom/Black Adam/Ras al Ghul to call her own.
    An excellent point, and I think Grail could fit that bill quite nicely, with the right touch. She's not a bad concept, she just hasn't been used well (when she's used at all) in the short few years since her arrival. But I do gotta admit, I found her fascinating and scary in Darkseid War.
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  10. #775
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    An excellent point, and I think Grail could fit that bill quite nicely, with the right touch. She's not a bad concept, she just hasn't been used well (when she's used at all) in the short few years since her arrival. But I do gotta admit, I found her fascinating and scary in Darkseid War.
    I think Diana would be better served by an arch villain that is not subordinate to another. There is no parental or boss figure for Sinestro, Zoom, or Ra's when they show up. Each of them is the focal point, with no figure that overshadows them, no other villain they are defined in relation to. Grail is "Darkseid's daughter" - defined by her connection to another villain. She might be able to outgrow, certainly, but I think a "from scratch" villain would be a much better choice.

  11. #776
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think a big part of that would be determined by how involved in his daughter's life Darkseid actually is. If Grail's parentage is mostly a background detail (at least most of the time) then it should work (assuming the writing is quality). But if she's Darkseid's minion doing his good work then yeah, Grail isn't going to work as a "Sinestro" type of foe.

    If they go the Grayven route where Grail is barely involved with Darkseid (despite also chasing the Anti-Life Equation) then I say go for it. But if she's part of his court? Keep her as a WW villain but don't try to assign her to that "Sinestro" role.

    I really dont see Darkseid's involvement as a barrier here. The Fourth World is a big place that sticks its fingers into all kinds of franchises to various degrees and Diana should be no different. Hell, given who she is it makes sense that Darkseid would be just as interested in her as he is Superman (though Diana doesn't have the history with Darkseid that makes it personal....yet).
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  12. #777
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I really dont see Darkseid's involvement as a barrier here. The Fourth World is a big place that sticks its fingers into all kinds of franchises to various degrees and Diana should be no different. Hell, given who she is it makes sense that Darkseid would be just as interested in her as he is Superman (though Diana doesn't have the history with Darkseid that makes it personal....yet).
    Sure, but Darkseid is generally king baddie of that world. Unless Grail challenges him for that, there may be a perception issue. It would heavily depend on wither Darkseid is seen as a JL or entire-hero-roster villain or a Superman villain.

    If the latter, it may feel like how it was when Captain Marvel had Sivana as enemy, and Freddy had Sivana's son and Mary had Sivana's daughter. There's a definite second-class-villain status there to me. Similar circumstance with Supergirl and Nasthalthia Luthor. Those are both old and dated, I admit, and it wouldn't have to play out the same way at all. But I just have a knee-jerk aversion to the idea of Superman against king baddie of the realm and Wonder Woman the second-tier villain of the same realm. I didn't even like it when it was Freddy and Mary (also because it seemed very copy-catish).

    Mind you, I prefer Darkseid as a Scott and Barda/Forever People villain rather than Superman one, but that's not the general perception, I don't think.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-28-2019 at 06:04 PM.

  13. #778
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I definitely think perception would be an issue. Regardless of what Grail's involvement with Darkseid was, some people would just see her as a second string New God. But I think those people would hold that opinion no matter what, even if Darkseid was never even mentioned and Grail's goals had nothing to do with daddy so......if you can't make perception work for you, might as well ignore it and just focus on quality work I guess?

    I'm with you on not wanting to see Grail as Darkseid's pawn. Diana deserves better from her rogues gallery than that. But just because that's Grail's dad it doesnt mean that's all she would actually be. She can be her own villain and have her own agency, and she's as steeped in Amazon lore as she is in New Gods lore. Some readers won't recognize that just because of who is on the birth certificate, no matter what the story is. So screw em.
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  14. #779
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I'm with you on not wanting to see Grail as Darkseid's pawn. Diana deserves better from her rogues gallery than that. But just because that's Grail's dad it doesnt mean that's all she would actually be. She can be her own villain and have her own agency, and she's as steeped in Amazon lore as she is in New Gods lore. Some readers won't recognize that just because of who is on the birth certificate, no matter what the story is. So screw em.
    I can't agree. If she's not topping Darkseid, she's second-tier New God villain material to me. If they didn't have a specific hierarchical structure, she might not be, but they do, so she is. As long as he is around, she has less power than someone else in the same circle, so her status as a villain is less than his.

    More than that, he's been around an age. As long as he remains around/prominent, she's likely to be defined by him. Now, she could feasibly outgrow it, but that takes time and is a very iffy proposition, IMO. If I, as someone who hasn't heard of the character, but do know DC in the broadstrokes ask "who's Grail?" the first answer I think I'm likely to get is "Darkseid's daughter." If I ask who Darskseid is, it's quite likely none of his children or wives will be mentioned by name. That's the difference. How long and how much effort does it take for that to change and can it stick across multiple writers?

    For instance, if I ask about Stephanie Brown these days, I think few will call her "Cluemaster's daughter." They would have at first, but she grew to other things, and more importantly, he was small potatoes and a lot of people didn't know who he was anyway.

    Someone asks who Jericho is, and I think "Deathstroke's son" is the most likely first answer, too.

    Harley Quinn is a bit different. I think she may be at a point where if someone asks who she is, the first response might well not be a one or two sentence sum-up of the Joker's "seduction." He might, feasibly, not be mentioned until much further down the list. But I also think she was at least 15 years old as a character before she reached that point.

    I think Grail is going to need years to build an independent rep before she can be seen as anything but Darkseid-jr. at best, especially if she, like him, is chasing the anti-life equation. If she serves him, her status is even lower. And I don't see him being permanently killed off to make room for her.

    As a nemesis, she's fine. But I think she's a long way away from arch-nemesis material to me at this point.

    Also, when trying to create/develop an arch villain, you can't ignore audience perception. "Screw em" doesn't work when you need an audience consensus that this villain is cool enough to be the villain.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-28-2019 at 07:12 PM.

  15. #780
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think Diana would be better served by an arch villain that is not subordinate to another. There is no parental or boss figure for Sinestro, Zoom, or Ra's when they show up. Each of them is the focal point, with no figure that overshadows them, no other villain they are defined in relation to. Grail is "Darkseid's daughter" - defined by her connection to another villain. She might be able to outgrow, certainly, but I think a "from scratch" villain would be a much better choice.
    I think you've perfectly articulated what makes most of us uncomfortable about embracing Grail, as the archenemy...the nemesis.

    She's assembled using parts, borrowed outside the Wonderverse. She doesn't feel fully owned, by it, sort of like putting an overdue library book on your shelf...or wearing some underwear your cousin left in a guest room? On some level, we can't feel she completely belongs to the WW comic. What might change that is a story that decisively breaks her from Darkseid, but, even then...dunno.

    Maybe, we never will.

    Diana needs a natural enemy, and its seems she still doesn't have one. That kind of antagonist has to grow, organically, from the most pivotal moments of the on-going narrative. We'll all know who she is, when the right story or cycle of stories produces her. Even the writers will know, but, we haven't read that story, yet.

    Here's a controversial opinion - isn't that kind of sad, in 2019? We've been reading this comic, all these years, and we can't point the finger to one game-changing story, in which the die was cast. It's the story, which writes the Wonder-mission, the enemy best poised to challenge it, threatens everything and everyone that Diana cares about...all that, written in the sky, in fire! Where is that story?

    As long, as I've been reading these comics, I wish I could say I had an idea for it. As well, as I feel that I get, who or what this character can and should be, ..I don't know and can't tell that greatest WW story. I'm waiting, with all of you, amigos...2019, still waiting.

    Let me say this - I feel like Grail is so close. So-ooo close!

    I think Diana's natural enemy is going to be a physical challenge to her, because WW is such a physical character, and Grail is certainly that. I think this archenemy is one, whose life's mission sets her on a collision course, with Wonder Woman, ..and Grail, being an anti-life goddess, is that, also. Where Grail is concerned, I think there is one thing missing, however, ..and that is fanaticism - in my mind, that's an opposing mission. Grail doesn't seem to care about anything, except following Daddyseid's lead, right now, and we don't even know what her reasons are for that. With so much going for her - best of all, her Amazon heritage...

    Grail still feels like a miss to me.

    Comparatively, Veronica Cale has that. I almost wish we could smoosh them, together, somehow.
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