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  1. #826
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    I actually agree with you - Circe’s inconsistent backstory is one of the things that weigh down her character from being used more (and better). We haven’t delved that deeply into it in Rebirth yet, but the Justice League Dark storyline has used her really well regardless. Diana and her have a very unique relationship in it, with Diana calling her “sister” and seemingly trusting her more than she should. It’s building up to something, so we’ll have to see if her backstory in this iteration is revealed later. If nothing else, Tynion really ironed out the connection Circe and Diana have to Hecate and made it a lot less convoluted. I think it’s way more interesting, but you’re free to disagree.
    I think Circe should be to Hippolyta what Barabra Ann is to Diana: former friend turned bitter rival. They should have their own epic backstory of friendship and betrayal. And I always imagine Circe's early encounters with Diana (and, in an ideal world, Donna as well) would be more about striking out at the queen's daughter(s) out of spite for not being able to get at Hippolyta herself. And of course, after repeated encounters, she's going to develop a complex rivalry with Wonder Woman herself.

    I'd still have to check out how Tynion ironed it out. The take I didn't find interesting was Perez's, but maybe Tynion's would work for me.

    Also, I always liked her design in your avatar. I wish that would make a comeback, none of the others really work for me. The early Rebirth one was fine for interacting with mortals but not as her default, and I hate the New 52 one where she looks like Goth Pipi Longstocking.

  2. #827
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I actually like the idea of Circe being the magical chief or something like that. That Hippolyta and the Amazons high her in high regards. Many of the Amazons learned magic from her. She is the one who cut off the Amazons from the world. What if the Amazons like in the original were just an uncharted island? Circe cursed the Island so men would become animals

  3. #828
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I don't see why Circe has to be the Homeric Circe, and not an evil outcast Amazon, named Circe, ..or some entirely original character, from a strange dimension, with powers that recalled those of the mythical Circe. I see no reason why the Homeric Circe has to be shoehorned or tacked on to the backstory of DC's Amazons, when that hasn't proven to be very appealing or even mildly interesting to readers.

    Why can't Circe be ..not Circe?
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  4. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I don't see why Circe has to be the Homeric Circe, and not an evil outcast Amazon, named Circe, ..or some entirely original character, from a strange dimension, with powers that recalled those of the mythical Circe. I see no reason why the Homeric Circe has to be shoehorned or tacked on to the backstory of DC's Amazons, when that hasn't proven to be very appealing or even mildly interesting to readers.

    Why can't Circe be ..not Circe?
    To begin with, we already have multiple evil Amazon characters. The Homeric Circe isn't any more "shoehorned" than other Greek myth characters. And even if your claim about her backstory not being interesting to readers is true (it isn't), another generic evil Amazon will be even less interesting.

  5. #830
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Because Dc has already tired multiple times to replace characters with similar type characters never truly works out. Why would you want another character to be replaced? Diana has had too many characters replaced. Honestly Circe just causing trouble because she can. Can also be a good reason. Yea she is angry with Hippolyta for locking her up. She more angry with Diana being more popular than her. Her reason can be petty

  6. #831
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Because Dc has already tired multiple times to replace characters with similar type characters never truly works out. Why would you want another character to be replaced? Diana has had too many characters replaced. Honestly Circe just causing trouble because she can. Can also be a good reason. Yea she is angry with Hippolyta for locking her up. She more angry with Diana being more popular than her. Her reason can be petty
    I just don't see any reason that Circe's backstory has to be tied to the Amazons, at all. I also don't see why she's hanging around Earth, except to make the Olympians pay for reducing her father from glorified god of light to Apollo's servant. Circe has a reason to be angry at all of us, ..which has nothing to do with Amazons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    To begin with, we already have multiple evil Amazon characters. The Homeric Circe isn't any more "shoehorned" than other Greek myth characters. And even if your claim about her backstory not being interesting to readers is true (it isn't), another generic evil Amazon will be even less interesting.
    Who said anything about another generic Amazon or another even more generic sorceress? Either way, it couldn't be more generic, than the Circe that we already have... [Heavy snoring sounds here.]
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-07-2019 at 03:00 AM.
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  7. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post


    Who said anything about another generic Amazon
    You did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I don't see why Circe has to be the Homeric Circe, and not an evil outcast Amazon, named Circe,






    or another even more generic sorceress?
    I didn't say anything of the sort.

  8. #833
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    The Amazons are named for gods and fabled lands, like Nubia. There would be nothing unusual about one, named 'Circe'.

    Circe could be from anywhere on Earth or beyond it, from another dimension or alien world. So far, the Homeric Circe's presence in the WW comic, like every other rogue, except Ares, ..remains inconsequential. If giving her a new backstory made her infinitely more interesting, than the Homeric Circe, I don't think we would riot or drop the comic.
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  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    The Amazons are named for gods and fabled lands, like Nubia. There would be nothing unusual about one, named 'Circe'.

    Circe could be from anywhere on Earth or beyond it, from another dimension or alien world. So far, the Homeric Circe's presence in the WW comic, like every other rogue, except Ares, ..remains inconsequential. If giving her a new backstory made her infinitely more interesting, than the Homeric Circe, I don't think we would riot or drop the comic.
    First of all, Nubia is not a fabled land. It's a place that exists.

    Secondly, the issue with Circe has nothing to do with her not being the one from the myths. It's lack of consistency in portrayal, aka the same problem every Wonder Woman character suffers from. Removing Circe's connection to the myths would not only fail to make her interesting (it's probably the one thing keeping her in constant use) it would only add to the problem of lack of consistency in the WW books.

  10. #835
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    First of all, Nubia is not a fabled land. It's a place that exists.

    Secondly, the issue with Circe has nothing to do with her not being the one from the myths. It's lack of consistency in portrayal, aka the same problem every Wonder Woman character suffers from. Removing Circe's connection to the myths would not only fail to make her interesting (it's probably the one thing keeping her in constant use) it would only add to the problem of lack of consistency in the WW books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    First of all, Nubia is not a fabled land. It's a place that exists.

    Secondly, the issue with Circe has nothing to do with her not being the one from the myths. It's lack of consistency in portrayal, aka the same problem every Wonder Woman character suffers from. Removing Circe's connection to the myths would not only fail to make her interesting (it's probably the one thing keeping her in constant use) it would only add to the problem of lack of consistency in the WW books.
    'Fabled' does not mean fictional, and especially, when considering Nubia. Nubia (Sudan) is a part of the world, with which legends are freely associated, and it was certainly a fabled land, in the minds of the classical Greeks, like Homer ..and Herodotus. The whole point of his writing was to offer first-hand, real-world insight, beyond the ancient Greek world's myths about that country. Say what you will; Nubia is a fabled and storied land.

    "Removing Circe's connection to the myths would not only fail to make her interesting..." I couldn't disagree, more. Greg Rucka did a pretty good job of creating a Circe, who was refreshingly different, from what had gone before, and who might have been an entirely different character. It's your opinion that Circe has to be Homeric Circe, and not some entirely original character, whose power or other characteristics recall the mythical sorceress. I get that you're coming from a purist position, but, I don't see how keeping Circe, Homeric, ..has made the WW comic, more successful.

    It doesn't dismiss anything I've offered.
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  11. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    "Removing Circe's connection to the myths would not only fail to make her interesting..." I couldn't disagree, more. Greg Rucka did a pretty good job of creating a Circe, who was refreshingly different, from what had gone before, and who might have been an entirely different character. It's your opinion that Circe has to be Homeric Circe, and not some entirely original character, whose power or other characteristics recall the mythical sorceress. I get that you're coming from a purist position, but, I don't see how keeping Circe, Homeric, ..has made the WW comic, more successful.

    It doesn't dismiss anything I've offered.
    You are talking about two different things here. Rucka gave his version of Circe a slightly different personality from previous depictions of Circe in the WW comics. He did not erase her connections to the myths. This has nothing to do with purism, this is me stating facts. Not only has what you offered completely unworkable, it literally has never been done and never will be done in the WW comics. Because it wouldn’t work.

  12. #837
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Yeah, Circe is stated several times to be the character from the Odyssey. Most recently she talked about how grateful she was that Homer decided to include her (to say nothing of its accuracy). It wouldn’t make sense to strip her of that mythology, connection to the gods, etc. Do you want the same for every mythological character that interacts with Diana? The gods, Hercules, even Hippolyta are characters from myth. It’s integral to Wonder Woman’s background that she deals with all of these beings from myth. I like the way Circe has been morphed to fit the DC universe.

    I don’t think mythological Circe is a villain or resembles this character at all, but the comics take liberties with all of the myths they’ve adopted. I think it’s fun to play with ancient myths and take the superhero stories of old and reimagine them in our modern superhero paradigm. To me it’s essential that Wonder Woman has these connections. Circe is a big part of that.

    Honestly, making her not related to mythological Circe is MORE convoluted and unnecessary, whether she’s a sorceress from another dimension or an exiled Amazon witch. It’s much more fun to say “yeah, this is Circe. Yes, that Circe. Run with it.” That’s always been my take.

    Regardless I do think there is a sizable portion of Diana’s fan base that enjoys the fact that she plays with myths and gods. If that’s not you, that’s fine, but for me that’s a huge part of her appeal and what got me into her in the first place - I loved Greek mythology as a kid (and still do) so Diana was a perfect fit for me.
    Last edited by Circe; 08-07-2019 at 11:52 AM.

  13. #838
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think Circe should be to Hippolyta what Barabra Ann is to Diana: former friend turned bitter rival. They should have their own epic backstory of friendship and betrayal. And I always imagine Circe's early encounters with Diana (and, in an ideal world, Donna as well) would be more about striking out at the queen's daughter(s) out of spite for not being able to get at Hippolyta herself. And of course, after repeated encounters, she's going to develop a complex rivalry with Wonder Woman herself.

    I'd still have to check out how Tynion ironed it out. The take I didn't find interesting was Perez's, but maybe Tynion's would work for me.

    Also, I always liked her design in your avatar. I wish that would make a comeback, none of the others really work for me. The early Rebirth one was fine for interacting with mortals but not as her default, and I hate the New 52 one where she looks like Goth Pipi Longstocking.
    Honestly that would be a great one-shot series... origins of Hippolyta and the Amazons with Circe included. I feel like there are a lot of stories that haven’t been told there!

    I definitely recommend checking out what Tynion has done with the concept. Justice League Dark is turning into one of the best Wonder Woman stories imo.

    I actually don’t hate the goth look, but I would change a lot. She’s lost any resemblance to any look she’s ever had but that might be the point... a reworking of the character. .

  14. #839
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circe View Post
    I don’t think mythological Circe is a villain or resembles this character at all, but the comics take liberties with all of the myths they’ve adopted. I think it’s fun to play with ancient myths and take the superhero stories of old and reimagine them in our modern superhero paradigm. To me it’s essential that Wonder Woman has these connections. Circe is a big part of that.
    Agreed. However, I don't really like the direction Pérez and later writers have taken the character in. The key to just about every decent reworking of classical myth for use in Wonder Woman has been to use a feminist lens as a start. It's been a central part since Marston, and something that Pérez, Rucka, and I think also Wilson has used to good effect.

    But that was not used when Circe was introduced. The character was rather simplified. Rucka and Tynion has put some more nuance into the character, but the fundamental decision by Pérez to make Circe a villain remains.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #840
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Don't misunderstand me. I've been one of Circe's staunchest champions, and I'm talking about the Perez, Homeric Circe of WOGs. Read my CBR forum post history, and you'll see.

    As I see it, her being the daughter of Helios of Greek myth and her conceivable outrage over his cruel fate ..is completely wasted. That Helios retired with the other elder Titans, under the reign of the Olympians. However, the post-Crisis 'Titans of Myth' (Cronus, Rhea, Hyperion, etc) slaughtered the elder Titans, who were their parents. They killed them and cast them into Tartarus or Chaos or someplace, very bad, ..and no mention was made of survivors.

    The post-Crisis Circe's father was Helios, the god of light, ..whom the Olympians cast into Tartarus. She can only imagine the bright, hopeful, perfect world that her father might have created, before the Olympians destroyed him. In her eyes, Wonder Woman is just another of Zeus's armored thugs, ..like Theseus, Achilles or Herakles. Helios's damnation at Olympian hands, could never be forgiven! In Circe's eyes, the world that loves Wonder Woman is a world that betrayed her father; so, destroying Wonder Woman wouldn't be enough for her. In her eyes, every man, woman and child should pay for what happened to Helios...all of us!

    No innocents.

    This was a great injustice, any way you look at it. Before Apollo's ascension, her father was once the god of light, of enlightenment itself, of good and virtuous things. The perfect world that she might have inherited and ruled over, as his daughter, will never be! Being an immortal, Circe's hatred for Wonder Woman and the Olympians should conceivably burn forever! If anyone (me) is looking for a simple motivation for the Homeric Circe's hatred for Wonder Woman, ..there it is!

    Running with that backstory...we, including Diana herself, might almost sympathize with Homeric Circe. Can I imagine that Circe, with that motivation, cracking the sky open and dumping it on our heads, a couple of times, a year? Absolutely! However, that's not her motivation in the WW comics. That's not the backstory. Writers/editors seem to have left all of that great, classical myth stuff on the cutting room floor and are happy with Circe being a secondhand Joker wannabee, with tired magic powers. Alternately, writers make her a loser, who's ticked off, because Hippolyta messed her over, ..or crying over getting jilted by some stinky, whore-mongering sailor. Why...

    When she can be so much more?

    I'll confess to being tired of watching this character flounder - tired of seeing all of her myth-inspired potential wasted or ignored in sub-par stories. If changing her backstory would give the character new life, popularity and score some successes for the WW comic, ..I'm all for it.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 08-07-2019 at 02:52 PM. Reason: clarity
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