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  1. #1036
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    For me, the question about having the Amazons be xenophobic is just absurd. Because they are not, and should not be. They just want to live without men. That to some degree makes them isolationist, but they're not in any way eliminationist. Not in Marston, not in Pérez, not in Rucka. The pattern of thought that a community without men must in some way be flawed or inferior is based on the patriarchal idea that men must be at the center of everything.
    Now you've got me curious as to how you'd respond to a community of men that would want to live without women in the similar way the Amazons would want to live without men. Haha.

  2. #1037
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Now you've got me curious as to how you'd respond to a community of men that would want to live without women in the similar way the Amazons would want to live without men. Haha.
    There already is one such that has been around for over a thousand years: Athos in Greece. And it's fine by me, even if I don't want to live there (for lots of reasons, starting with me not being a Christian).

    Another way to answer your question is that one of my favourite books is Ethan of Athos by Lois Bujold. It's very much inspired by the real-world Athos, though it goes in wildly different directions.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #1038
    Spectacular Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    For me, the question about having the Amazons be xenophobic is just absurd. Because they are not, and should not be. They just want to live without men.
    These statements are contradictory. You can't just want to live without men. There has to be a reason - prejudice. Prejudice against the other is xenophobia, justified or not. And the Amazons aren't just isolationists "to some degree", they always start out as hard isolationists.

  4. #1039
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    These statements are contradictory. You can't just want to live without men. There has to be a reason - prejudice. Prejudice against the other is xenophobia, justified or not. And the Amazons aren't just isolationists "to some degree", they always start out as hard isolationists.
    Hmmm...

    If I don't like you (generic you, not you personally ) and I don't want to be around you, does that make me you-phobic?

    Fear and hatred = phobic
    Wanting to avoid because you're unpleasant = sensible

    If a patriarchal society = violence and war
    Does a matriarchal society = peace and love?

    That's the question the Amazons set out to discover.

    They didn't like the way the world was, and they were too few to change it, so they left it to go live by themselves.

    Some of them are most definitely xenophobic, but that doesn't make them a xenophobic society/culture.

  5. #1040
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    Not to mention that the X-MEN are adopting a philosophy and culture similar to Amazon's precepts where humans are generally unwelcome.

  6. #1041
    Spectacular Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Hmmm...

    If I don't like you (generic you, not you personally ) and I don't want to be around you, does that make me you-phobic?

    Fear and hatred = phobic
    Wanting to avoid because you're unpleasant = sensible.
    Well, staying away from a specific person because they wronged you is not the same staying away from the half of the world's population because they happen to share a gender with someone who wronged you.

    Some of them are most definitely xenophobic, but that doesn't make them a xenophobic society/culture.
    I certainly wouldn't call them a xenophobic society (aside from New52 and other horrid depictions). In the Pre-Flashpoint continuity they initially didn't have that much of a choice since they just followed the will of their patrons. But after Diana left the Island there's definitely a significant change in the way the Amazons interacted with the outside world (untill Amazons Attack ruined everything, ugh).

    Not to mention that the X-MEN are adopting a philosophy and culture similar to Amazon's precepts where humans are generally unwelcome.
    At least that's not presented in a particularly positive light so far. We'll see where it goes, but I suspect their Paradise Island won't last for long.

  7. #1042
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    These statements are contradictory. You can't just want to live without men. There has to be a reason - prejudice. Prejudice against the other is xenophobia, justified or not. And the Amazons aren't just isolationists "to some degree", they always start out as hard isolationists.
    Are some Amazons prejudiced? Sure. But so is everyone else. You, me, DiDio, Simone, Rucka, and whoever else you care to name.

    I want the Amazons to be recognised for having built a culture and community that raised one of the top heroes the world has ever seen. I'm not demanding that they "open up" at the say-so of their former oppressors.

    Because Themyscira was created as a safe space for women, and should stay that way.

    And for everyone who claims that the Amazons are morally inferior for wanting to live without men, I'm going to say that that view is sexist as fuck, and doesn't get better from there.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #1043
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    I feel like these conversations would happen a lot less if DC didn't always feel the need to reset the Amazons' relationship with the outside world.

  9. #1044
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I feel like these conversations would happen a lot less if DC didn't always feel the need to reset the Amazons' relationship with the outside world.
    Or go more than a few years without making them do something very questionable.

    Like seriously? Any Amazon thinking that following Grail is a good idea? Get a grip Amazons...

  10. #1045
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    One of the most frustrating things about being a WW fan is that there are few (if any) runs where a writer can nail all the elements and characters of the mythos. it's all scattered across several different runs:
    - Perez did right by the Amazons in terms of characterization, but nerfed them as far as technology goes and failed at creating truely modern and exciting versions of Steve and Etta that people want to read about. Inventing new versions of the villains also wasn't helping with consistency.
    - Rucka probably comes the closest with Diana, Amazons, mythos and villains, but his Steve and Etta were just ok.
    - Morrison writes a fun Diana and the best versions ever of Etta and Dr. Psycho, but his Amazons can be too arrogant/hostile
    - Johns wrote the best comic Steve but is pretty "meh" to outright bad with everything else.
    - Azzarello wrote a cool Diana and the God reinventions were interesting, but the Amazons sucks and all other classic characters were absent.

    Jimenez may be the best because he seems to love all versions of WW and be willing to use whatever he has available faithfully to the current version, while bringing in classic elements when able.

    Also, upon further reflection, Azzarello writes a more consistently competent, confident and powerful Diana than Wilson.

  11. #1046
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    ...Themyscira was created as a safe space for women, and should stay that way.
    I agree, provided we're talking about the Themyscira of comics, rather than that of myth, which tended to be a militaristic misandry.
    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    ...And for everyone who claims that the Amazons are morally inferior for wanting to live without men, I'm going to say that that view is sexist as fuck, and doesn't get better from there.
    Nor do I think Amazonian isolationism xenophobic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    ...I want the Amazons to be recognised for having built a culture and community that raised one of the top heroes the world has ever seen. I'm not demanding that they "open up" at the say-so of their former oppressors.
    An ideal society, however, is problematic for an ongoing series. Le Guin said that (paraphrase) Utopias were processes rather than social orders, implying that a fully complete Utopia makes for a poor dramatic setting. I can see how writers feel compelled to try manufacturing some moral conflict into Paradise Island. Otherwise, you're left with only a few options for them:
    • Remove conflict and imperfection from their existence, and make Themyscira the heaven from which a messianic Diana descended to aid man. Essentially leave them in the background, and rarely visit them.
    • View Amazon culture as something pure that gets contaminated by exposure to man, purges itself, repeat.
    • Cast the Amazon culture as being just as flawed beneath its idealistic veneer as the US'. For example, characterize Amazons as Utopian, as long as they're dealing with their equals...meaning only themselves, and give them a completely different set of attitudes towards those they view as their inferiors. Given the push to recognize some of the US' historical white-washes, I can see why this approach appeals to some writers as an allegory, and misogyny need not be its cause.


    None of these take away from the idea that Themyscira produced Wonder Woman. But when you've got to produce a monthly Wonder Woman comic, sooner or later you're going to have to do something to inject some drama into the Amazonian society, unless the publisher puts a blanket ban on stories involving the Amazons as anything more than backdrop.

  12. #1047
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    One of the most frustrating things about being a WW fan is that there are few (if any) runs where a writer can nail all the elements and characters of the mythos. it's all scattered across several different runs:
    - Perez did right by the Amazons in terms of characterization, but nerfed them as far as technology goes and failed at creating truely modern and exciting versions of Steve and Etta that people want to read about. Inventing new versions of the villains also wasn't helping with consistency.
    - Rucka probably comes the closest with Diana, Amazons, mythos and villains, but his Steve and Etta were just ok.
    - Morrison writes a fun Diana and the best versions ever of Etta and Dr. Psycho, but his Amazons can be too arrogant/hostile
    - Johns wrote the best comic Steve but is pretty "meh" to outright bad with everything else.
    - Azzarello wrote a cool Diana and the God reinventions were interesting, but the Amazons sucks and all other classic characters were absent.

    Jimenez may be the best because he seems to love all versions of WW and be willing to use whatever he has available faithfully to the current version, while bringing in classic elements when able.

    Also, upon further reflection, Azzarello writes a more consistently competent, confident and powerful Diana than Wilson.
    ^That be serious Truth up there!^

  13. #1048
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    Personally, I'm more concerned with if the Amazons and other supporting female characters are handled well than Steve.

  14. #1049
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    An ideal society, however, is problematic for an ongoing series. Le Guin said that (paraphrase) Utopias were processes rather than social orders, implying that a fully complete Utopia makes for a poor dramatic setting. I can see how writers feel compelled to try manufacturing some moral conflict into Paradise Island. Otherwise, you're left with only a few options for them
    I don't disagree with this assessment. I don't necessarily think Themyscira and Amazon society should be depicted as a utopia, but at the same time I think it should unambigiously be presented as a healthy society that is good for its inhabitants (which Azzarello and Morrison spectacularly failed to do)—at least for most of the time and in the long run. The Amazons should be an example to us and the people in Man's World, not be forced down to our level. There is still a huge field between that and a full-blown utopia.

    I do think Simone had the right idea with The Circle when she developed it, that is to look into the fissure lines and conflicts that are possible within any community. She did some good decisions in that plot arc, like making sure that the conflict felt believable, it was integral to the society and not depending on some external factor, and that there were some emotional heft to the conflict. That's also why I like the idea that some Amazons had to give up their sons when they traveled to or arrived on Themyscira. Not as a dark secret that taints them, but as something they regret and view as shameful.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #1050
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Personally, I'm more concerned with if the Amazons and other supporting female characters are handled well than Steve.
    But ideally we shouldn't have to have either/or. A run deserves props for doing one well, but can be called out for the other. Because WW needs everything operating at optimum levels, at least most of the time.

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