Batman #53 Preview

[Caivu]

As for the social media posts, IMHO, only what appears in the comics and can be easily seen by all readers is canon.

Oh, that is such a dodge. Why are statements from the writers themselves not allowed?

And let me reiterate--I'm not against the idea of Martha and the Kanes in general being Jewish at all. It's just that the comics haven't provided enough evidence for me to regard them as undoubtedly Jewish.

What do you mean there's not enough evidence? WTF do you want?

I've had this same conversation maybe seven times over the past year, and every single time it's like pulling teeth. So forgive me for being frustrated, but this to me is like someone saying that there's not enough evidence to definitely say if Bruce Wayne has dark hair or not.

[Ten_to_Three]

Oh, that is such a dodge. Why are statements from the writers themselves not allowed?

What do you mean there's not enough evidence? WTF do you want?

I've had this same conversation maybe seven times over the past year, and every single time it's like pulling teeth. So forgive me for being frustrated, but this to me is like someone saying that there's not enough evidence to definitely say if Bruce Wayne has dark hair or not.

Creators' statements on the social media do mean something, but as evidence they aren't canon-level concrete. The reason is: the messages from the creators on the social media aren't easily accessible to fans not active on the social media--or more precisely, the particular social media the creators use. The majority of the comics readership aren't aware of everything the creators say on twitter or tumblr or whatever. Comics canon is a collection of ideas the validity of which we (DC, the creators, and us fans) all agree on. How could certain characterizations be considered "canon" if many comic-reading fans have no idea about their existence because it's impossible for them to get informed through the regular means (i.e., reading comics)?

I want direct acknowledgment on DC's part, like this--

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--not something only a portion of the fanbase may become aware of when it comes out, and later fans will have to wade through years of social media posts to see (assuming the posts they look for still exist by then). As a fan, I think DC should directly acknowledge the background of its characters when aiming to diversify them, as opposed to relying on personal statements of the creators made on non-official platforms, and fans hoping for more diversity and representation should refuse to settle for less than the former.

[Caivu]

Then forget about the tweets for the sake of argument, even though what you're saying is kinda the same as "does a falling tree make a sound if no one is around to hear it?" (yes). The evidence in the comics is still enough, by your own standards.

[Ten_to_Three]

To use your tree metaphor--trees aren't all the same. There are trees rangers regularly keep an eye on. If they fall, it's reasonable to expect the rangers to learn about it. The same can't be said for trees the existence of which is unknown to a significant amount of rangers.

Based on my understanding of the Abramic religions and my experience reading Bat-books, I think Martha's ethnicity and religion are unclear and up to the readers' own interpretation. That said, I don't claim to be an expert in either area (I was born and raised in the East with none of my family following any of the Abramic religions, and I only read Batwoman-related materials occasionally). If you can show using comics contents that Martha is undoubtedly Jewish and any alternative interpretation regarding her ethnicity and/or religion is invalid, I'll gladly change my mind.

[Caivu]

Based on my understanding of the Abramic religions and my experience reading Bat-books, I think Martha's ethnicity and religion are unclear and up to the readers' own interpretation. That said, I don't claim to be an expert in either area (I was born and raised in the East with none of my family following any of the Abramic religions, and I only read Batwoman-related materials occasionally). If you can show using comics contents that Martha is undoubtedly Jewish and any alternative interpretation regarding her ethnicity and/or religion is invalid, I'll gladly change my mind.

What is unclear about a menorah being present on the display at her funeral? How is that alone not blaringly obvious as to what it indicates?

Seriously, explain it to me. I don't understand what is so hard to accept about this.

[kjn]

Oh, that is such a dodge. Why are statements from the writers themselves not allowed?

They are allowed, but are generally considered to be less definitive than the text (in this case the actual comic). The TVtropes article on Word of God gives as good rundown why that is so.

The sheer preponderance of Batman stories where he thinks about his parents, visits their grave, and so on, also complicates things. Why should only the Jewish religious symbols that appear in one comic matter, while all the earlier comics are disregarded? All of it only becomes evidence that Bennett and Tynion considers Martha to have been Jewish in their own particular interpretation of the character; note also that Tynion explicitly says "with no canon to back me up".

If future writers pick it up and add supporting details in their stories, then you receive a much stronger case for canonicity. (I'm also aware that the concept of crypto-Jews and the way Jewish communities have been suppressed by the society around them further makes this even trickier.)

[Caivu]

The sheer preponderance of Batman stories where he thinks about his parents, visits their grave, and so on, also complicates things. Why should only the Jewish religious symbols that appear in one comic matter, while all the earlier comics are disregarded?

Those earlier things don't have to be disregarded, and shouldn't be. Being Jewish and being Christian are not mutually exclusive.

[kjn]

Those earlier things don't have to be disregarded, and shouldn't be. Being Jewish and being Christian are not mutually exclusive.

Learn something new there, though my admittedly shallow knowledge of relation between Christianity and Judaism makes me guess that it's a belief that has and maybe is challenged.

[Ten_to_Three]

What is unclear about a menorah being present on the display at her funeral? How is that alone not blaringly obvious as to what it indicates?

Seriously, explain it to me. I don't understand what is so hard to accept about this.

Because the presence of a menorah at her funeral doesn't necessarily mean Martha is Jewish.

In The Menorah: From the Bible to Modern Times Steven Fine talks about the use of the menorah by Christians.
Some more easily accessible evidence:
1) The article and the comment section here: http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/...ish-roots.html
2) The comment section here: http://www.praytellblog.com/index.ph...ll-worked-out/

There's also a possibility that Martha isn't of a particular religion but is spiritual in a sense as well as open-minded and thus welcomes all kinds of religious symbols at her funeral.

[Caivu]

Because the presence of a menorah at her funeral doesn't necessarily mean Martha is Jewish. In The Menorah: From the Bible to Modern Times Steven Fine talks about the use of the menorah by Christians.

Seriously? Do you honestly believe that's the intent here? Occam's razor, friend. You're twisting yourself up in knots denying this just because there's a relative handful of exceptions to the obvious conclusion. Why are you doing that? Why?

No average person is going to identify a menorah as a Christian symbol, and you know it. This is getting ridiculous.

[Talon1load]

Why are you getting so worked up about this? Most superheroes religions aren’t addressed. Why do you feel like this one needs to be? Religion is not a driving force behind Batman’s motivations so leaving it ambiguous allows people to believe what they want. Any creators ideas are meaningless unless they make it to the pages of the comic.

[Caivu]

Why are you getting so worked up about this? Most superheroes religions aren’t addressed. Why do you feel like this one needs to be?

I'm not saying Bruce has to be devout at all. What I'm "worked up" about is this bizarre denial some people are having to what is clear as day in the comics. To present this incredibly obvious detail and have so many people jump through all sorts of hoops to declare why it doesn't actually mean what it clearly does. It's so frustrating.

[Talon1load]

5e problem is that you’re using 2 scenes from a comic that is loosely related to Batman as proof of something. It doesn’t prove anything. You’re obviously free to interpret this however you like but it’s not an established fact until an author makes it one in story.

[Caivu]

5e problem is that you’re using 2 scenes from a comic that is loosely related to Batman as proof of something. It doesn’t prove anything.

Why does this not prove anything? It's shown on-panel! It is, as you say, an "established fact".

This is exactly what I was talking about.

[Talon1load]

One is just a picture of a menorah with no text to really establish anything, and the other is Batwomans father who has very little to do with Batman. Why do you need Batman to specifically be Jewish? Does it change the character for you? It doesn’t matter if he is or isn’t really but no writer has ever specifically and directly made him Jewish.